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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
AZPaul3
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Posts: 7476
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 1112 of 1123 (903056)
12-02-2022 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1111 by Percy
12-02-2022 1:11 AM


Re: A Good Guy With a Gun
If the pursuer was a cop and the cop was killed, would that be any different? How about an off-duty cop late on the scene?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1111 by Percy, posted 12-02-2022 1:11 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1113 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2022 7:33 AM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 1114 by Percy, posted 12-02-2022 1:16 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 1113 of 1123 (903057)
12-02-2022 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1112 by AZPaul3
12-02-2022 4:27 AM


Re: A Good Guy With a Gun
These things always seem counter to natural justice but the law is pretty clear; you have a right to defend yourself but once the danger has passed you can't just attack someone.
Had the bad guy not shot back, it's even possible that the good guy could have been charged for shooting him in the leg. Your right to protect your property only extends to using reasonable force - whether shooting someone amounts to reasonable in the US I wouldn't know given your love of guns and vigilantes. Likelihood would be a jury would refuse to find guilt even if the law seemed to require it anyway.
The situation is a bit different if the good guy was police. So long as he'd issued sufficient warnings he might be off the hook because the bad guy was actively resisting arrest. But I don't know your laws.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1112 by AZPaul3, posted 12-02-2022 4:27 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1114 of 1123 (903066)
12-02-2022 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1112 by AZPaul3
12-02-2022 4:27 AM


Re: A Good Guy With a Gun
AZPaul3 writes:
If the pursuer was a cop and the cop was killed, would that be any different? How about an off-duty cop late on the scene?
Yes, exactly, that's another theme of this thread. The protections extended to police result in a sense of empowerment combined with impunity that results in a fair percentage of police departments becoming abusive.
But even police can find themselves embroiled in trouble when they shoot at fleeing suspects, so armed civilians, untrained and unfamiliar with the nuances, are even more likely might to be tempted (in the name of justice and all that is fair) to fire at criminals, not realizing a threat must exist.
I guess it's the irony that gets me. People buy a gun to feel safe, but not only are they less safe physically just by placing a gun in their vicinity, unless they're well versed in the law they're probably less safe legally, depending upon jurisdiction.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1112 by AZPaul3, posted 12-02-2022 4:27 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17033
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1115 of 1123 (903069)
12-02-2022 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1111 by Percy
12-02-2022 1:11 AM


Re: A Good Guy With a Gun
I'm not even sure if I would have a gun at home, but the lesson here is certainly that one best leave their gun at home and definitely never bring it to work.
Guns tend to complicate things, but I would never be in favor of outlawing them because as the saying goes, only outlaws (and some robbers and thieves) would have them. Carjackings are not a peaceful thought. Which is one reason I own a clunker. Nobody would want to carjack me!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1111 by Percy, posted 12-02-2022 1:11 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1116 by Theodoric, posted 12-02-2022 5:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1119 by ringo, posted 12-12-2022 11:26 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
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Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 1116 of 1123 (903072)
12-02-2022 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1115 by Phat
12-02-2022 2:05 PM


Re: A Good Guy With a Gun
My wife and I drive newer cars. Never worried about carjacking. Yes it happens but not enough to be constantly armed.
The "if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns" is one of the stupider pro-gun arguments.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1115 by Phat, posted 12-02-2022 2:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17033
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 1117 of 1123 (903495)
12-12-2022 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1001 by jar
06-08-2022 9:50 PM


Re: a plot that kinda blurs things
jar(missing in action) writes:
So are you suggesting a magazine capacity limit?
Personally, I say to bring as many magazines to the picnic as you can. The girls need new ones for their beauty parlor.
We've moved way away from the Gun Control thread, but I just wanted to flag you down and see if you are ok. Anyone who agrees with me that you are worth checking up on hit this post up with a green like!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1001 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 9:50 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17033
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1118 of 1123 (903496)
12-12-2022 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Percy
08-12-2022 10:18 AM


Re: In A Nutshell
Percy writes:
Once guns are safely locked away in serious lockboxes maybe people will realize the guns are not really available for home defense, and further, that their homes and persons have never been under constant threat of attack by thieves and murderers, that the country, most of it, is a far safer place than they thought.
Of course it depends a lot on where you live.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Percy, posted 08-12-2022 10:18 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1119 of 1123 (903518)
12-12-2022 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1115 by Phat
12-02-2022 2:05 PM


Re: A Good Guy With a Gun
Phat writes:
... I would never be in favor of outlawing them because as the saying goes, only outlaws (and some robbers and thieves) would have them.
If only outlaws have guns, it's easier to tell who the outlaws are. Arrest them on the way to the bank, lock them up, throw away the key, and there will be fewer bank robberies.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1115 by Phat, posted 12-02-2022 2:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 1120 of 1123 (905484)
01-28-2023 8:34 AM


Police Shouldn't Patrol Traffic
The recent Tyre Nichols case has brought to the forefront an argument I've made myself in this thread, that police should not be patrolling traffic. The same guy/gal who puts on a gun, a taser, a baton, pepper spray, window punch, handcuffs and body armor (typically around 25 pounds of total gear) so that he's prepared to take down the bad guys should not be the same guy/gal who pulls you over for doing 40 in a 30 zone. I don't want this "armed to the teeth with nerves on razor edge because some monster might be lurking behind the wheel" person approaching my vehicle.
Police responsibility for carrying out wellness checks, traffic stops, security checks (e.g.,while you're away on vacation) should be given to other departments within government (but not within the police department) for providing these and other services. The police should be responsible for crime and crime-related public safety.
If Tyre Nichols had been pulled over by a traffic cop armed only with a camera for taking images of the vehicle, the license plate and the driver and whose training included and emphasized how to back away or even run away when confronted with resistance or danger, then Tyre Nichols would still be with us. The subject of the traffic stop will not be getting away. The real cops now have all the information they need to track him down and arrest him.
That the cops now under arrest for the murder of Tyre Nichols were black has received a lot of attention. This is a behavior pattern I noticed often during my working career. Staff takes on the values and behaviors of the culture they work within, even when it runs against their own values and culture, and the nature of that culture is driven by management. I worked in high tech, and some reading this have probably noticed reports in recent years of high tech companies taking retaliatory measures against employees they deem as having acted against the best interests of the company.
This is not a new phenomena. I was experiencing it as long as 30 years ago. As soon as they deem you a trouble maker they find other problems with your performance that for some reason are not even hinted at in any prior performance review, and in this way they keep trouble makers in line. Those seeking allies to fight a company policy or action will find few takers.
The cops who murdered Tyre Nichols embraced and internalized the values of the culture they worked within. That is not their fault. That is human nature. It's what people do. Their behavior was unusual only in its level of violence. Police departments across the country encourage an "us versus them" mentality, and woe to you if you have an interaction with a cop who has decided you fit in the "them" category. The result is hordes of cops on our streets amped up on terrifying training that makes their primary daily goal to just make it to the end of their shift alive by any means possible. You give them any reason to think that goal at risk and you are toast.
I was once pulled over for having an expired inspection sticker by a recently hired cop at the school entrance while dropping off my son. I did what I always do at the school in order to keep the line moving, which was to let my son out of his car seat, but I also grabbed the stamped inspection extension form I had sitting on the dashboard. I was ordered back into my car with what I considered extreme vehemence and prejudice. I of course obeyed, the drop-off line was completely disrupted while he radioed in his stop before finally coming over to look at my extension form. We live in a quiet rural community and this cop was gone in a few weeks. I don't know if we were too quiet for his liking or if he just annoyed too many people. Either is possible. In any case, we don't need cops like this, aggravated and armed, on school property checking inspection stickers, and it's a poor use of police resources given all their crime-related training.
So let's let cops focus on crime and free them up from all the other responsibilities that for too long they've been overburdened with. We'll all be better off for it.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1121 by Theodoric, posted 01-28-2023 9:27 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1122 by ringo, posted 01-28-2023 11:08 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1121 of 1123 (905485)
01-28-2023 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1120 by Percy
01-28-2023 8:34 AM


Re: Police Shouldn't Patrol Traffic
Very good points. I am going to share your post on some other forums I participate in. If you want I will link back to the original post. I think these ideas deserve wide discussion.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1120 by Percy, posted 01-28-2023 8:34 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1122 of 1123 (905490)
01-28-2023 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1120 by Percy
01-28-2023 8:34 AM


Re: Police Shouldn't Patrol Traffic
Percy writes:
I don't want this "armed to the teeth with nerves on razor edge because some monster might be lurking behind the wheel" person approaching my vehicle.
The trouble with that is that there are a lot of monsters behind the wheel. Your Constitution guarantees your right to be a monster behind the wheel, armed to the teeth and ready to blaze away at anybody who rubs you the wrong way. Asking anybody to pull over a strange car is like asking your Marines to invade a random country unarmed.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1120 by Percy, posted 01-28-2023 8:34 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(4)
Message 1123 of 1123 (905492)
01-28-2023 12:09 PM


Liked This Editorial Cartoon
--Percy

  
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