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Author Topic:   The Changing World Order
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 151 of 302 (903413)
12-10-2022 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
12-10-2022 12:37 AM


Understanding the purpose of government
Do what? Make decisions to keep the economy from collapsing? The purpose of government is not to protect personal wealth. It is to support the commonweal.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 12:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 10:41 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 152 of 302 (903425)
12-10-2022 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Theodoric
12-09-2022 9:40 AM


Re: How The Economic Machine Works
When you get their opinions back, please quote them. I dont care about their names or party affiliation. I trust you. If you respect an "expert" I will listen to that "expert".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Theodoric, posted 12-09-2022 9:40 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 153 of 302 (903427)
12-10-2022 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Theodoric
12-10-2022 7:57 AM


Re: Understanding the purpose of government
Theodoric writes:
The purpose of government is not to protect personal wealth. It is to support the commonweal.
Commonweal? I assume you mean commonwealth. So what is commonwealth?
Oxford Languages writes:
Commonwealth: an independent country or community, especially a democratic republic.
so are we a Democracy or a Republic? As a moderate, I'd say both.
1. an aggregate or grouping of countries or other bodies.
"a union or commonwealth of democratic, self-governing countries"
a community or organization of shared interests in a nonpolitical field.
"the Christian commonwealth"
a self-governing unit voluntarily grouped with the US, such as Puerto Rico.
"the island became a commonwealth of the United States in 1986"
a formal title of some of the states of the US, especially Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.
the title of the federated Australian states.
the republican period of government in Britain between the execution of Charles I in 1649 and the Restoration of Charles II in 1660.
singular proper noun: Commonwealth
2.
an international association consisting of the UK together with states that were previously part of the British Empire, and dependencies. The British monarch is the symbolic head of the Commonwealth.
3) (archaic)-the general good.
Imagine a global commonwealth. In my mind, this would equate to a One World Government. At this point in time, I can see no way that such a concept would hold together. After all, if we here in the US have partisan political bickering, how on earth would the added complexities of global governance ever survive in unity?( From now on, I will address the Literalist "dogma" of an Antichrist keeping our secular discussion in mind)
This discussion is mos def *not* about religious dogma or any actual or hypothetical "antichrists" but I will say that if such a character ever sprung up, he would never be a conservative like Trump. He likely would spring from the bowels of the CCP.
Anyway, getting back to my main point. If in fact a commonwealth can equate to a common interest, I would argue that the purpose of said government is to protect common interest. It only makes sense that a common trait of a common interest is to protect individual wealth as well as community "wealth". Right? (unless you are a far left Marxist )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Theodoric, posted 12-10-2022 7:57 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:01 AM Phat has replied
 Message 172 by Theodoric, posted 12-10-2022 1:38 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 154 of 302 (903428)
12-10-2022 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
12-09-2022 2:30 PM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
You call me authoritarian without knowing what it means.
I thought i used the Dictionary!
quote:
"the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom."
When have I ever suggested anything resembling that?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
I don't care what you think about gold.
Well I don't care what you think of macaroni either.
I don't bore you in every post blathering about macaroni.
Phat writes:
And if the government seized your macaroni, you might then learn what I see authoritarianism as.
That does illustrate what you don't understand about authoritarianism.
Phat writes:
What if they seized your stored up box of macaroni, offered you 25 cents for it, then raised the official price of macaroni to $1.00?
That's a worthless what-if. Obviously, I would pay it.
And it has nothing to do with authoritariansim.
What if the government lowered the speed limit to 55 mph?
What if the government taxed liquor and tobacco?
What if the government taxed gasoline?
What if the government taxed everything you buy?
You need to learn that everything the government does is not necessarily authoritarian.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 12-09-2022 2:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 155 of 302 (903429)
12-10-2022 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
12-09-2022 11:43 AM


Re: Another Rabbit Trail On Modern Conservatism
ringo writes:
What more do you need?
I need a bi-partisan government. I need a two-party system. I don't "need" one collective of "we". Why? Because *we* often disagree. I wont simply have a gang of"we" telling me what I must do, in the name of ...well take your pick:
in the name of humanity. (that's a laugh!)
In the name of Jesus.
In the name of Mono-secularism. ((see? I just invented that word... I think. : )
We can discuss this rabbit trail more at Message 191

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 12-09-2022 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 156 of 302 (903430)
12-10-2022 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
12-10-2022 10:41 AM


Re: Understanding the purpose of government
Phat writes:
It only makes sense that a common trait of a common interest is to protect individual wealth as well as community "wealth". Right?
Wrong.
The "common good" is not served by individual wealth. Individual wealth subtracts from community wealth. Your beloved "offshore system" streals from the community wealth in favor of individual wealth.
When are you going to stop supporting slavery the rich at your own expense?
Phat writes:
(unless you are a far left Marxist.)
Stop spouting far-right propaganda and learn what Marxism is.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 10:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 11:15 AM ringo has replied
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 11:26 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 302 (903431)
12-10-2022 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
12-10-2022 11:01 AM


Mono-Secularism *is* a One World Government.
ringo writes:
When are you going to stop supporting slavery the rich at your own expense?
I'm not. Im supporting individualism at *your* expense.
I'm in internet school this morning before I take a nap and go to work.
I started thinking about the word that sprung up in my head...namely monosecularism.
This led me to Wiki and to this:
Slavic Native Faith's identity and political philosophy
Note the following quotes from the article
wiki:
In the Russian intellectual milieu, Slavic Native Faith (Rodnovery) presents itself as a carrier of the political philosophy of nativism/nationalism/populism (narodnichestvo),[1] intrinsically related to the identity of the Slavs and the broader group of populations with Indo-European speaking origins,[2] and intertwined with historiosophical ideas about the past and the future of these populations and their role in eschatology.[3]
Rodnovery typically gives preeminence to the rights of the collectivity over the rights of the individual,[6] and Rodnover social values are conservative.[7] Common themes are the opposition to cosmopolitanism, liberalism, and globalization,[8] as well as Americanisation and consumerism.[9]
The scholar Kaarina Aitamurto defined Rodnovers' applied political systems as forms of grassroots democracy, or as a samoderzhavie ("self-rule") system, based on the ancient Slavic model of the veche (assembly) of the elders, similar to ancient Greek democracy. They generally propose a political system in which power is entrusted to assemblies of consensually-acknowledged wise men, or to a single wise individual.

I will spout propaganda from both sides. You only spout it from one side.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:01 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:24 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 158 of 302 (903432)
12-10-2022 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
12-10-2022 10:51 AM


Re: Another Rabbit Trail On Modern Conservatism
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
What more do you need?
I need a bi-partisan government.
Stop trying to evade.
In Message 141 you asked, "Apart from Trump and populism, what specifically is bad about the Republican Party of today?"
In Message 142 I replied, "The Republicans let Trump get away with his crimes. What more do you need? They obstruct Congress. What more do you need?"
We were talking about what is bad about the Republican Party. So answer the question I asked: What do you need besides letting Trump get away with his crimes and general obstruction of Congress?
Phat writes:
I need a bi-partisan government. I need a two-party system.
So you DON'T need a party that obstructs the duly-elected party in power.
Phat writes:
I don't "need" one collective of "we".
Have you ever heard of co-operation? Have you ever heard of compromise?
The whole idea of democracy is to give diverse viewpoints a say.
Phat writes:
Why? Because *we* often disagree.
Of course we do. Do you want to just ride rough-shod over minority ideas? Again, the point of democracy IS "we", not "me".
Phat writes:
I wont simply have a gang of"we" telling me what I must do...
You damn well WILL do what the government says. Who do you think you are? Che Guevara?
Phat writes:
... in the name of ...well take your pick:
in the name of humanity. (that's a laugh!)
Your contempt for humanity is well-known. It's one of the ugliest characteristics of your ugly religion.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 10:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 159 of 302 (903433)
12-10-2022 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
12-10-2022 11:15 AM


Re: Mono-Secularism *is* a One World Government.
Phat writes:
Im supporting individualism at *your* expense.
​Y'know, there's a "Preview" button right beside the "Submit Reply" button. Maybe you should read what you're about to post before submitting such an infernally stupid reply.
I AM an individual, you moron. How can you support me against myself?
Phat writes:
I will spout propaganda from both sides. You only spout it from one side.
Feel free to point to any propaganda that i have spouted.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 11:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 11:40 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 160 of 302 (903435)
12-10-2022 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
12-10-2022 11:01 AM


Re: Understanding the purpose of government
rigo writes:
Stop spouting far-right propaganda and learn what Marxism is.
Only if I also get to learn what Capitalism is.
The "common good" is not served by individual wealth.
Tell that to Henry Ford. His company, Ford Motor Company, helped win World War II.
Individual wealth subtracts from community wealth.
Its a good thing that *we* didn't take Henry's individual wealth and give it to FDR. He did it himself voluntarily. And likely earned a small profit making tanks...or at least broke even. Individual Wealth is good. Don't believe everything you hear.
Your beloved "offshore system" streals from the community wealth in favor of individual wealth.
You seem to believe the idea that there *should* be no individual wealth. And then you have the gall to trot out Jesus to support your warped far left Marxist views. Am I wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:01 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:44 AM Phat has replied
 Message 173 by Theodoric, posted 12-10-2022 1:43 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 302 (903437)
12-10-2022 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by ringo
12-10-2022 11:24 AM


Re: Mono-Secularism *is* a One World Government.
ringo writes:
I AM an individual, you moron. How can you support me against myself?
That's what the antichrist will do. He will argue that since Jesus never existed, *we* must all be moral individuals and we *must* support the collective (One World Government)
According to the Bible, He is the bad guy.
ringo writes:
Feel free to point to any propaganda that I have spouted.
This whole idea that there is (or should be) no individual wealth and that we would be noble and honorable people if we supported the collective.(The commonwealth). It sounds good in theory but were such a government authoritarian and dictatorial (out of necessity, of course. ) we would have problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:24 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 162 of 302 (903439)
12-10-2022 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
12-10-2022 11:26 AM


Re: Understanding the purpose of government
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Stop spouting far-right propaganda and learn what Marxism is.
Only if I also get to learn what Capitalism is.
By all means, learn all you can.
Phat writes:
The "common good" is not served by individual wealth.Tell that to Henry Ford. His company, Ford Motor Company, helped win World War II.
Tell that to Hitler. He supported the individual wealth of the Krupp family but World War II ITSELF was not for the common good. There would not have BEEN a World War II if the common good was the goal.
Phat writes:
Its a good thing that *we* didn't take Henry's individual wealth and give it to FDR. He did it himself voluntarily.
How is it a "good thing" if he did it himself but not if "we" took it?
Phat writes:
Individual Wealth is good.
You say that without any evidence to support it.
Phat writes:
Don't believe everything you hear.
Look in the mirror.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Your beloved "offshore system" streals from the community wealth in favor of individual wealth.
You seem to believe the idea that there *should* be no individual wealth.
Stop dreaming about what "seems" to be and respond to what I actually said.
Phat writes:
And then you have the gall to trot out Jesus to support your warped far left Marxist views.
Nothing I have said is remotely far-left or Marxist.
And YOU have a lot of gall even mentioning Jesus when you spit on everything He said.
Phat writes:
Am I wrong?
Yes.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 11:26 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 11:52 AM ringo has replied
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 11:57 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 302 (903441)
12-10-2022 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by ringo
12-10-2022 11:44 AM


Re: Understanding the purpose of government
ringo writes:
Nothing I have said is remotely far-left or Marxist.
Interesting. What would you call it? Moderate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 164 of 302 (903442)
12-10-2022 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
12-10-2022 11:40 AM


Re: Mono-Secularism *is* a One World Government.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
I AM an individual, you moron. How can you support me against myself?
That's what the antichrist will do.
Again, you quote me and then go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with what I said. The anti-christ will not change the meaning of words.
Phat writes:
He will argue that since Jesus never existed...
No. He obviously will not. He will pretend to BE Jesus.
Phat writes:
... *we* must all be moral individuals...
Do you disagree with that?
Phat writes:
... and we *must* support the collective...
We must render unto Caesar. (But the Jesus in your head never said that either, I suppose.)
Phat writes:
... (One World Government)
We already have one, by the way, the United Nations, which has done a lot of good in the world, despite the idiots who try to thwart it.
And your hatred of governments in general is well-known. It does you no credit.
Phat writes:
This whole idea that there is (or should be) no individual wealth ...
Who said that?
This is what I mean about you spouting right-wing propaganda. THEY say that's what I think and you swallow it hook, line and sinker without paying the slightest attention to what I actually say.
Phat writes:
... and that we would be noble and honorable people if we supported the collective.
Are you saying it's a bad thing to be noble and honorable? Or are you saying that stealing from the collective to build our individual wealth is a good thing?
Phat writes:
It sounds good in theory but were such a government authoritarian and dictatorial (out of necessity, of course. ) we would have problems.
There is no reason to think that a government is "authoritarian" or "dictatorial" just because they disagree with you.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 11:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 302 (903443)
12-10-2022 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by ringo
12-10-2022 11:44 AM


What Is The Common Good?
ringo writes:
World War II ITSELF was not for the common good. There would not have BEEN a World War II if the common good was the goal.
OK. Explain to me how *we* could have achieved and implemented a common good that benefited Americans, Japanese, Germans and Russians all at the same time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by ringo, posted 12-10-2022 12:00 PM Phat has replied
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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