Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 7/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Changing World Order
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 121 of 302 (903317)
12-08-2022 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
12-07-2022 1:52 PM


Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
Phat writes:
Taq writes:
We have more than enough money to put all homeless people into homes.
Who is "we"?
Our city government calculated that it would take $122.5 million to "end homelessness" in the city. That would require a tax increase of $40.59 per month ($487.08 annually) per homeowner in 2023 and $11.90 per month ($142.80 annually) in 2024.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 1:52 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 122 of 302 (903318)
12-08-2022 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
12-08-2022 5:24 AM


Re: Back On Topic...Sort Of...
Phat writes:
I believe that even in a national crisis, the government has no right to nationalize everyone's private wealth.
Your belief is wrong. The government has a legal right to do whatever the Constitution doesn't forbid. And it has a moral right (and duty) to do whatever the electorate elects them to do.
Phat writes:
He [ringo] will appeal to emotionalism...
See above. I appealed to the Constitution.
Phat writes:
I stand on the right to private property and individual liberty over and above group cohesiveness.
That's a completely un-Christian stance.
Phat writes:
Confiscatory taxation...
Is a glitch in your mind.
Phat writes:
... infringes on individual liberty and private property rights.
ALL government is an infringement on individual liberty and private property rights. All SOCIETY is an infringement on individual liberty and private property rights.
Remember our member Petrophysics? We haven't seen him here since he said he voted for Trump in 2016 because he did everything he promised (BEFORE he was elected, mind you.) That genius Petrophysics claims to be completely self-made with no responsibility to society. I asked him if he built the university where he learned about petrophysics or if he built the roads that he drove on to get to that university. I got no answer.
And I don't suppose I'll get an answer from you either. You'll go on blathering about how you have no obligation to society.
Phat writes:
When the global economy tanks,(and it will within 5 years)...
How many years have you been predicting that? And that "5 years" keeps receding into the future.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 5:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 123 of 302 (903319)
12-08-2022 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
12-08-2022 6:35 AM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
Phat writes:
My theory is that the Democrats want the gold/money available for public interest above private interest...
Will you ever get it through your head that the "private interest" that you tout is not YOUR interest? You're like the poor whites who supported slavery even though it was AGAINST their own interests.
Phat writes:
I can only say that the IMF and most global Central Banks still own (and are buying) more gold.
I own macaroni.
Phat writes:
Commodities are always a safe harbor in an economic storm.
USEFUL commodities are a safe harbor, things that people NEED, like food. Invest your money in pork bellies.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 6:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 302 (903337)
12-08-2022 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by nwr
12-08-2022 11:17 AM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
nwr writes:
Why is it that you don't credit FDR with bringing us that prosperity?
I'll give him 1/3 credit. Churchill and Stalin get the other two-thirds. And it was WW II and the war effort that made America an Empire...not a New Deal Democrat. Nixon, Reagan, and Ford were no better, to be fair.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by nwr, posted 12-08-2022 11:17 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Taq, posted 12-08-2022 3:44 PM Phat has replied
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 12-09-2022 10:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 125 of 302 (903345)
12-08-2022 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
12-08-2022 2:57 PM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
Phat writes:
And it was WW II and the war effort that made America an Empire...not a New Deal Democrat.
You do know who was US President during WWII and that war effort, right? FDR was also never an isolationist and he spoke fervently for joining the war in Europe, contrary to the strong isolationist sentiment of other politicians. The reason we had a war effort was FDR.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 2:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 4:03 PM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 302 (903347)
12-08-2022 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Taq
12-08-2022 3:44 PM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
I give the American people as much credit for the war effort as I do FDR. There were wealthy industrialists who helped turn us into the vaunted arsenal of democracy.
And getting back to Churchill, I saw an alleged quote by him on BrainyQuote, but I'm not sure I trust these quotes as having originated from the purported authors! See what you guys think:
More on Churchill from Wiki:
In 20th century politics, Winston Churchill (1874–1965) was one of the world's most influential and significant figures. He was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1940 to 1945, when he led the country to victory in the Second World War, and again from 1951 to 1955. Apart from two years between 1922 and 1924, he was a Member of Parliament (MP) from 1900 to 1964. Ideologically an economic liberal and imperialist, he was for most of his career a member of the Conservative Party, and its leader from 1940 to 1955. He was a member of the Liberal Party from 1904 to 1924. (...)
The historian Roger Hermiston writes that, when forming his national coalition government in May 1940, it helped Churchill that his own career had "never been circumscribed by party affiliation".[1] He had begun as a Conservative, defected to the Liberals for twenty years and then returned to the Conservatives. Stuart Ball asserts that he was always comfortable with the idea of governing coalitions.[2] Churchill was perceived by some observers to have been largely motivated by personal ambition rather than political principle,[3][4] and he lacked "permanent commitment to any party".[5] While Robert Rhodes James wrote that Churchill was "fundamentally a very conservative man",[5] Martin Gilbert considered him to be always "liberal in outlook".[6]
Roy Jenkins believed that, whether Churchill was conservative or liberal, he invariably opposed socialism,
except that he was completely reliant on the help and support of his Labour Party ministers in the wartime coalition.[7][8] Churchill was wary of socialist tendencies toward state planning and bureaucracy, because he consistently believed in both the liberty of the individual and of free markets.[9] Paul Addison asserts, however, that Churchill was paradoxically supportive of trade unionism, which he saw as the "antithesis of socialism".[10] While Churchill was in some respects a radical and a reformer,[11] it was not from any desire to challenge existing social structure, but to preserve it.[12] He could not empathise with the poor, so instead he sympathised with them,[13] displaying what Addison calls the attitude of a "benevolent paternalist".[14]
Thus Churchill, 1/3 of the Big Three, was a Conservative in World War II and beyond. Stalin was of course a Dictator, and FDR had a sleeping giant of a country backing him in his role.
Granted FDR was a very influential president and helped Britain win its war as a member of the allied powers. My point is that the allied block had both conservatives and liberals involved in the war effort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Taq, posted 12-08-2022 3:44 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Taq, posted 12-08-2022 4:25 PM Phat has replied
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 12-09-2022 11:00 AM Phat has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 127 of 302 (903357)
12-08-2022 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
12-08-2022 4:03 PM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
Phat writes:
I give the American people as much credit for the war effort as I do FDR. There were wealthy industrialists who helped turn us into the vaunted arsenal of democracy.
If it was a Republican president I bet you would be singing his praises.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 4:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 5:45 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 302 (903364)
12-08-2022 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Taq
12-08-2022 4:25 PM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
Taq writes:
If it was a Republican president I bet you would be singing his praises.
Nonsense. After all, Herbert Hoover was credited for getting us *in* to the depression, and he was a Republican. After reading up on Churchill, I must say that I respect him for being a member of both parties at different times. And for those of you who despise rich guys, note that FDR was a very wealthy individual. Churchill, though he had an aristocratic background was said to not be particularly wealthy.
I studied more online.
Did New Deal Programs Help End the Great Depression? ...
quote:
Since the late 1930s, conventional wisdom has held that President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s “New Deal” helped bring about the end of the Great Depression. The series of social and government spending programs did get millions of Americans back to work on hundreds of public projects across the country.
But in the 80 years since the Great Depression was formally declared over in June of 1938, historians and economists have continued to debate the true merits of the New Deal and whether, in fact, the radical government spending programs brought about the end of the biggest economic downturn in history.(...)But, just because the United States hasn’t repeated the economic catastrophe of the Great Depression doesn’t mean the programs of the New Deal can take all the credit. Other factors were also at play—including the onset of a major world war. “It really could be argued World War II, which ultimately lowered unemployment and increased GNP through weapons production really played a much bigger role,” Lichtenstein says.

And lets get back to Ray Dalio's book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Taq, posted 12-08-2022 4:25 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Theodoric, posted 12-08-2022 8:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 129 of 302 (903368)
12-08-2022 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
12-08-2022 5:45 PM


Cherry picking is very bad form
Weird how you removed an important section in the middle of what you quoted. I wonder why. Let's see what part you skipped.
quote:
“The reforms put in place by New Deal, including encouraging the beginning of the labor movement, which fostered wage growth and sustained the purchasing power of millions of Americans, the establishment of Social Security and the federal regulations imposed on the financial industry, as imperfect as they were, essentially ensured there wouldn’t be another Great Depression after the 1930s,” says Nelson Lichtenstein, professor of history and director of the Center for the Study of Work, Labor and Democracy at the University of California, Santa Barbara.
“And there hasn’t been. We’ve had a few close calls, but nothing like the Great Depression,” he says.
Weird, huh.
Also, you skip another important part in the same article. Let's see what that says.
quote:
According to Linda Gordon, professor of history at New York University, the Works Progress Administration, created in 1935, also had a positive impact by employing more than 8 million Americans in building projects ranging from bridges and airports to parks and schools.
Such programs certainly helped end the Great Depression, “but were insufficient [because] the amount of government funds for stimulus wasn’t large enough,” she notes. “Only World War II, with its demands for massive war production, which created lots of jobs, ended the Depression.”
So the New Deal needed to be bigger and bolder, to solve everything but what it did was amazing.
As for Churchill he was a brilliant war leader but mediocre outside of war. He did not come to power by an election. He took over leadership of the Conservative Party in May 1940 thus became Prime Minister. The last election was in 1935. The next was in 1945. It was a monumental loss for Churchill and his party.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 5:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 12-09-2022 9:15 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 130 of 302 (903373)
12-09-2022 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Theodoric
12-08-2022 8:23 PM


How The Economic Machine Works
Mr.Dalio has another brilliant video that explains, in 30 minutes, a simplified description of how the economy works in the United States. You have said some uninformed and ignorant statements that show me that you really don't understand the economy.
I will provide the video link, but I also want to break down the transcript so that people such as ringo who believe in the discipline (and old-fashioned approach) to modern learning can begin to understand the concepts.
Here is the basic outline of this video. Those so interested can click on the transcript themselves (on YouTube) but I also am rereading what Mr.Dalio says in his presentation.
Credit 3:28
Cycles 6:20
Short-term Debt Cycle 11:58
Long-term Debt Cycle 14:34
Deleveraging 16:51
A Beautiful Deleveraging 26:18
In Closing 29:37
I have the transcript. There is no charlatan involved here. No "theory" from a Hedge Fund Founder. What I see is straightforward talk and beautifully animated explanations from a man who first learned economics on the street long before this so-called "Modern" Economic theory was ever conceived. Judge for yourselves.
Oh and by the way, I cut out nothing and added nothing. What you see is what he teaches.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Theodoric, posted 12-08-2022 8:23 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Theodoric, posted 12-09-2022 9:22 AM Phat has replied
 Message 132 by Theodoric, posted 12-09-2022 9:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 131 of 302 (903374)
12-09-2022 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
12-09-2022 9:15 AM


Re: How The Economic Machine Works
Tell me what I said that was ignorant and uninformed. We don't debate by video. Summarize what he says. Why do you persist in presenting him as an expert on the economy? He is not. He is a billionaire hedge fund manager.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 12-09-2022 9:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 12-09-2022 9:41 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 132 of 302 (903375)
12-09-2022 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
12-09-2022 9:15 AM


Re: How The Economic Machine Works
I have some emails out to some people I highly respect that have backgrounds in economics to see if they can give me their opinion on Dalio, his writings and his videos.
Hopefully, they have time to respond.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 12-09-2022 9:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 10:11 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 133 of 302 (903376)
12-09-2022 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Theodoric
12-09-2022 9:22 AM


Re: How The Economic Machine Works
Before I attempt to answer your question, I have a few of my own (for you)
  • What specifically makes an "expert" an expert?
  • Why are you so impressed with college degrees? (Shiny Objects)

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 131 by Theodoric, posted 12-09-2022 9:22 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 134 by Theodoric, posted 12-09-2022 9:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 136 by Taq, posted 12-09-2022 10:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 138 by ringo, posted 12-09-2022 11:10 AM Phat has replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 9076
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 134 of 302 (903377)
    12-09-2022 9:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
    12-09-2022 9:41 AM


    Re: How The Economic Machine Works
    Your questions show how ridiculous you are. You have become a caricature of yourself. That you even ask these questions is astounding. Even for you. But as you still do not want to have a serious conversation, goodbye.
    But I will continue to point out stupidity, dishonesty, and failures of logic.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by Phat, posted 12-09-2022 9:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 135 of 302 (903380)
    12-09-2022 10:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
    12-08-2022 2:57 PM


    Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
    Phat writes:
    nwr writes:
    Why is it that you don't credit FDR with bringing us that prosperity?
    I'll give him 1/3 credit. Churchill and Stalin get the other two-thirds. And it was WW II and the war effort that made America an Empire...
    So you should give Hitler credit too. (By the way, Hitler was an authoritarian.)

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 124 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 2:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024