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Author Topic:   The Changing World Order
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 106 of 302 (903258)
12-07-2022 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
12-06-2022 11:14 AM


Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
ringo writes:
How is you paying less taxes going to fix that?
How is making the working class pay ever larger bills going to be the tide that raises all boats?
Lets get back to the book.
(Page 24)
Ray Dalio:
I learned that the biggest thing affecting most people in most countres throughout time is the struggle to make, take, and distribute wealth and power, though they also have struggled over other things too, most importantly ideology and religion.(...) I also saw how, throughout time and in all countries, the people who have the wealth are the people who own the means of wealth production. In order to maintain or increase their wealth, they work with the people who have the political power, who are in a symbiotic relationship with them, to set and enforce the rules.
It is like the old saying:
The Golden Rule: Those who have the gold make the rules.
Can anyone argue that this was not true? |
Dalio writes:
The classes of those who were wealthy and powerful evolved over time(e.g., from monarchs and nobles who were landowners when agricultural land was the most important source of wealth, to capitalists and elected or autocratic political officials now that capitalism produces capital assets and (I saw) how, over time, this dynamic leads to a very small percentage of the population gaining and controlling exceptionally large percentages of the total wealth and power, then becoming overextended, and then encountering bad times, which hurt those least wealthy and least powerful the hardest, which then leads to conflicts that produce revolutions and/or civil wars. When these conflicts are over, a new world order is created, and the cycle begins again.
he goes on to say that though these are his own views the ideas corroborate with what others have said before him.
And it all makes sense for a Hedge Fund manager to inform his clients about changes likely to sweep through a country or economy so that they can prepare accordingly.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 12-06-2022 11:14 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 11:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 107 of 302 (903260)
12-07-2022 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
12-07-2022 11:30 AM


Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
Phat writes:
Why would Walmarts close if the Walmart family left the country?
If they are still open in the US then they can be taxed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 11:30 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 12:59 PM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 108 of 302 (903261)
12-07-2022 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Taq
12-07-2022 12:46 PM


Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
Well of course the businesses can be taxed. That's only fair. Alice Walton still has plenty of money and pays her legal share, though the attorneys she hires are a business expense.
I worry that the wealthy will legally get out of paying the necessary increase in tax revenue to bail the United States out of the huge hole that it is in (which I think will never happen) and the bill will be stuck with you and I. Meanwhile, homelessness will continue to increase and the future of the country is uncertain. I hate to be negative...Tangle always says I preach DOOM and GLOOM, but people need to take their blinders off.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 12:46 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 1:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 109 of 302 (903266)
12-07-2022 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-07-2022 12:59 PM


Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
Phat writes:
I worry that the wealthy will legally get out of paying the necessary increase in tax revenue to bail the United States out of the huge hole that it is in (which I think will never happen) and the bill will be stuck with you and I.
I am also concerned about more and more of the tax burden being shifted to middle and lower class citizens. That's why I vote Democrat.
Meanwhile, homelessness will continue to increase and the future of the country is uncertain.
We have more than enough money to put all homeless people into homes. It's just a matter of will and priorities. Just the wealth of one of the top billionaires in the US is enough to buy a simple home for all current homeless people. I'm not saying we liquidate the wealth of billionaires, only pointing out that the money exists.
What I have noticed over the years is that people have issues with government funded programs like housing the homeless because they don't think the homeless are worthy of their help. Sounds a bit harsh, but I do think that is what it boils down to. We saw this same type of attitude during the pandemic when people were getting stimulus checks. One of the loudest talking points, especially amongst conservatives, was that people were just sitting around and getting money. They hated it. Of course, they still go gangbusters for massive government subsidies for billionaires, but a few hundred bucks for poor people drives them nuts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 12:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 1:52 PM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 110 of 302 (903268)
12-07-2022 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Taq
12-07-2022 1:32 PM


Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
Taq writes:
We have more than enough money to put all homeless people into homes.
Who is "we"? And why should "we" elect a government (of either political persuasion) who considers the money in the treasury and the money of the people as one lump sum?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 1:32 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 2:59 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 11:59 AM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 111 of 302 (903271)
12-07-2022 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
12-07-2022 1:52 PM


Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
Phat writes:
Who is "we"?
We the people.
And why should "we" elect a government (of either political persuasion) who considers the money in the treasury and the money of the people as one lump sum?
I never said that we should.
I was only pointing out that a single person in the US has enough money to buy a home for all of the homeless in our country. It was more of a critique of how much wealth has moved to the top.
added in edit:
Just thought I would throw the math in. There are about 500,000 homeless in the US right now. Let's say 2 people per house at a price of $300,000 each, so nothing too fancy. That's $75 billion. If Elon Musk paid for that, he would have about $145 billion dollars of net worth left over. Bezos would have about $95 billion left over.
And more fun with math . . .
The "War on Terror" between 2001 and 2022 cost about $2.3 trillion. That comes to 2.3E12/(22*12)= $8.7 billion per month. So we could house all of the homeless for 10 months of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We fought those wars for 264 months.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 1:52 PM Phat has not replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 825
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


(3)
Message 112 of 302 (903281)
12-07-2022 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
11-28-2022 11:24 AM


Re: Back On Topic...Sort Of...
There are no "Authoritarian Democrats" only Authoritarian Republicans, as the Democrats are actually (mostly) trying to help society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 11-28-2022 11:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Theodoric, posted 12-07-2022 9:34 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 113 of 302 (903284)
12-07-2022 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by kjsimons
12-07-2022 7:27 PM


Re: Back On Topic...Sort Of...
Phat thinks taxation is authoritarian.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by kjsimons, posted 12-07-2022 7:27 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 5:24 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 114 of 302 (903289)
12-08-2022 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Theodoric
12-07-2022 9:34 PM


Re: Back On Topic...Sort Of...
To clarify, I believe that even in a national crisis, the government has no right to nationalize everyone's private wealth.(Nor to confiscate the gold, as FDR did) I'm guessing that the peanut gallery sees that they do. (At least ringo will. )
He will appeal to emotionalism, asking me how I can call myself a Christian if women and children are starving....anywhere in the world. I stand on the right to private property and individual liberty over and above group cohesiveness.
Taxation in and of itself is necessary. Confiscatory taxation in the event of a "national crisis" infringes on individual liberty and private property rights. This is also why the NRA is supported by many. Jar would tell you. He sees individual liberty as the right to bear arms. I see it as the right to private property. I didn't learn this from Dalio, but there is a global movement backed by the BRIC nations to usurp the dollar as the global reserve currency.
kjsimons writes:
There are no "Authoritarian Democrats" only Authoritarian Republicans, as the Democrats are actually (mostly) trying to help society.
The Democrats would use that as an excuse. I again bring up FDR and gold confiscation.
When the global economy tanks,(and it will within 5 years) the government in power at that time would likely turn authoritarian and in an appeal to emotionalism claim that "they" were trying to help society. But that's getting off-topic...sort of.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Theodoric, posted 12-07-2022 9:34 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Taq, posted 12-08-2022 11:39 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 12:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 115 of 302 (903290)
12-08-2022 6:35 AM


A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
This is not mentioned in Ray Dalio's book (I don't think, anyway) but the question arose in my mind about why precisely FDR confiscated the gold and silver in 1933.
Wiki had the following quotes, taken from
Executive Order 6102
quote:
Executive Order 6102 is an executive order signed on April 5, 1933, by US President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States." The executive order was made under the authority of the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, as amended by the Emergency Banking Act in March 1933.
The limitation on gold ownership in the United States was repealed after President Gerald Ford signed a bill legalizing private ownership of gold coins, bars, and certificates by an Act of Congress, codified in Pub.L. 93–373,[1] which went into effect December 31, 1974.
The stated reason for the order was that hard times had caused a "hoarding" of gold, stalling economic growth and worsening the depression as the US was then using the gold standard for its currency.
The main rationale behind the order was actually to remove the constraint on the Federal Reserve preventing it from increasing the money supply during the depression. The Federal Reserve Act (1913) required 40% gold backing of Federal Reserve Notes that were issued. By the late 1920s, the Federal Reserve had almost reached the limit of allowable credit, in the form of Federal Reserve demand notes, which could be backed by the gold in its possession.

Several things to note:
  • FDR was a Democrat.
  • Gerald Ford was a Republican.
    Note the interplay between national interest and private property rights.
    And in order to get a peek into my mind and where this all is heading, consider the implications of an executive order today that tied in the digital currency with the price and legality of private gold ownership. Democrats want control. They think that fiat money belongs to the public. Republicans want freedom of private ownership.
    Note also that today's Fed "prints" money with abandon...especially since Nixon took us off of the Bretton Woods system to "defend the dollar against the speculators." The speculators were not private citizens at this point, since Ford's executive order was in 1974 and Nixon's was in 1971. (The speculators were other nations trying to get their own stash of gold from the US.
    And for those of you who argue lamely that the dollar determines the price of gold rather than the inverse, I can only say that the IMF and most global Central Banks still own (and are buying) more gold.
    Also, consider that gold is priced in dollars and the dollar is high right now in the current global sanctions/currency war. If the US Dollar ceased being the main reserve currency (and) at best a bit player among many, gold would show its true value.
    My theory is that the Democrats want the gold/money available for public interest above private interest and the Republicans to this day are still likely hoarding gold in the event that the dollar either hyperinflates or deflates and becomes shunned by the global markets...a time which has not yet arrived and which many say is coming.
    Wiki:
    Executive Order 6102 required all persons to deliver on or before May 1, 1933, all but a small amount of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates owned by them to the Federal Reserve in exchange for $20.67 (equivalent to $433 in 2021)[5] per troy ounce. Under the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, as amended by the recently passed Emergency Banking Act of March 9, 1933, a violation of the order was punishable by fine up to $10,000 (equivalent to $209,000 in 2021),[5] up to ten years in prison, or both.
    The order specifically exempted "customary use in industry, profession or art," a provision that covered artists, jewelers, dentists, sign-makers, etc. The order also permitted any person to own up to $100 in gold coins, a face value equivalent to 5 troy ounces (160 g) of gold valued at approximately $10,000 in 2020. The same paragraph also exempted "gold coins having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins", which protected recognized gold coin collections from legal seizure and likely melting.
    The price of gold from the Treasury for international transactions was then raised by the Gold Reserve Act to $35 an ounce (equivalent to $733 in 2021)[5]. The resulting profit that the government realized (ended up funding)the Exchange Stabilization Fund, established by the 1934 Gold Reserve Act.

    You guys can draw your own conclusions, but I will argue until the cows come home that gold is never going to become a barbarous relic (Keynes) nor will it ever crash like bitcoin.
    Commodities are always a safe harbor in an economic storm.
    Now back to the book.....

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should notbe the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 explaining his stance regarding political moderation.

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 116 by nwr, posted 12-08-2022 11:17 AM Phat has replied
     Message 123 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 12:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6421
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 3.6


    (3)
    Message 116 of 302 (903304)
    12-08-2022 11:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
    12-08-2022 6:35 AM


    Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail starring FDR and the Dems
    Several things to note:
  • FDR was a Democrat.
  • Gerald Ford was a Republican.
    Note the interplay between national interest and private property rights.
  • And I call bullshit on that.
    FDR was dealing with the great depression. Ford acted in a time of prosperity.
    Why is it that you don't credit FDR with bringing us that prosperity?

    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 6:35 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 124 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 2:57 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 498 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 117 of 302 (903312)
    12-08-2022 11:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
    12-06-2022 2:36 PM


    Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    You don't get to decide what's "necessary".
    The people decide what's necessary.
    But you don't like the people. You don't want to be equal with them.
    Phat writes:
    According to Dalio's video, Liberals by and large want to redistribute. Conservatives want to maintain.
    Another reason why you should throw Dalio out the window. Conservatives want to maintain their privilege. That's THEIR privilege, not yours.
    Phat writes:
    f you raise my taxes beyond a reasonable level, I will lobby to have you voted out.
    Apparently YouTube hasn't had any videos to show you the results of the recent mid-term elections. It's YOUR bunch that is being voted out.

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 100 by Phat, posted 12-06-2022 2:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 10158
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 3.9


    (1)
    Message 118 of 302 (903314)
    12-08-2022 11:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
    12-08-2022 5:24 AM


    Re: Back On Topic...Sort Of...
    Phat writes:
    Taxation in and of itself is necessary. Confiscatory taxation in the event of a "national crisis" infringes on individual liberty and private property rights.
    Can you give a real world example of confiscatory taxation that has happened in the US?
    The Democrats would use that as an excuse. I again bring up FDR and gold confiscation.
    People were compensated for their gold.
    When the global economy tanks,(and it will within 5 years) the government in power at that time would likely turn authoritarian and in an appeal to emotionalism claim that "they" were trying to help society. But that's getting off-topic...sort of.
    As with most Republican thought, it is all about fantasies of what they believe will happen instead of what is actually happening.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 5:24 AM Phat has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 498 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 119 of 302 (903315)
    12-08-2022 11:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
    12-07-2022 9:38 AM


    Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
    Phat writes:
    My argument focuses on Liberal Authoritarianism and control.
    Stop talking about authoritarianism. You don't know what you're talking about.
    Phat writes:
    They do have a point in that there is no reason for a man such as Bezos or Musk to even stay in this country if the people vote to supertax their wealth (rather than giving them business perks)
    More important, there is no reason to allow them to do business in a country that they refuse to support with their taxes. There's your beloved "offshore system" again, where they take their vast profits out of the country.

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 103 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 9:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 498 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (2)
    Message 120 of 302 (903316)
    12-08-2022 11:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
    12-07-2022 12:32 PM


    Re: DIGITAL CURRENCY
    Phat writes:
    How is making the working class pay ever larger bills going to be the tide that raises all boats?
    I have explained this to you before: Money circulates.
    I give spare change to a homeless person. He spends it on drugs. The drug dealer buys groceries at Safeway. The government taxes Safeway and spends the money on welfare. The welfare recipients buy groceries at Safeway. Safeway pays you. You pay your rent. Your landlord buys groceries at Safeway.
    Taxes paid to the government don't just disappear into a hole.
    Tax cuts for the rich DO go into a hole (overseas).

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 106 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 12:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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