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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1201 of 1429 (903177)
12-05-2022 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1199 by AZPaul3
12-05-2022 4:05 PM


Re: UCD evidence
APauling writes:
As you have shown us, accepting the preponderance of the evidence also sounds like a very dumb idea to you.
Irrelevant to the discussion ... as usual.
Assume that I accept UCD ... that will help keep you on track ... but then you won't have anything to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by AZPaul3, posted 12-05-2022 4:05 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1202 by AZPaul3, posted 12-05-2022 8:35 PM Dredge has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1202 of 1429 (903179)
12-05-2022 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1201 by Dredge
12-05-2022 7:24 PM


Re: UCD evidence
... but then you won't have anything to say.
In almost 400 messages here you haven't said anything so no great loss.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1201 by Dredge, posted 12-05-2022 7:24 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1203 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 5:06 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1203 of 1429 (903187)
12-06-2022 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1202 by AZPaul3
12-05-2022 8:35 PM


Re: UCD evidence
APauling writes:
In almost 400 messages here you haven't said anything
... an APauling testament to your lack of discernment, your inability to learn and your on-going struggle with cognitive dissonance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1202 by AZPaul3, posted 12-05-2022 8:35 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1211 by ringo, posted 12-06-2022 11:49 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1204 of 1429 (903188)
12-06-2022 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1188 by Taq
12-01-2022 11:12 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Taq writes:
It was because of UCD that they hypothesized toll proteins would have the same function in humans as it does in fruit flies.
Yeah, right ... in fact, the theory of UCD was so crucial that none of the researchers mentioned in the article say anything about it. LOL!
On the contrary, the article describes how Medzhitov noticed (from Hoffman's work) "that flies with defects in their toll genes became hypersusceptible to fungal infection."
That observation gave Medzhitov the idea that toll genes might act as a sensor, and he then applied that idea to the human immune system.
So what Medzhitov performed was simply an exercise in comparative physiology ... which doesn't require the theory of UCD.
"Janeway and Medzhitov could barely contain their delight. Could their human toll perform the same antifungal tour de force? Immediately, Medzhitov set to work. In essence, he wanted to know if human toll functioned as a sensor—a molecular scout for microbes—as well as a signaler to the adaptive immune system. After a year of experimentation, the answer to both questions was a resounding yes."
The History Behind The Discovery of toll-like Receptors < Yale School of Medicine
Your problem seems to be that you're conflating evidence for the theory of UCD with a practical use for the theory of UCD ... as if they're one and the same thing.
"Two and a half years later, the idea of innate immunity in humans and its connections to defense in invertebrates had already taken hold. At least 150 scientists gathered at a National Academy of Sciences colloquium in Irvine, Calif., entitled “Virulence and Defense in Host-Pathogen Interactions: Common Features between Plants and Animals.” At the meeting, 12 researchers specifically discussed their work on toll in flies and “toll-like receptors”—as the mammalian versions are now known—and other aspects of innate immunity. Two dozen other scientists focused on patterns common to the insect and mammalian pathogens.
By March 2001, scientists had found 10 other human toll-like receptors, including toll-like receptor 2, which Shizuo Akira, MD, and colleagues at Osaka University showed responds to a particular sequence found in bacterial DNA but not in mammalian DNA. To get an idea of how fast the field has grown since 1997, a literature search for the term “toll-like receptor” in 2022 brought up more than 56,000 abstracts.
The evolutionary connections also awed researchers, as they eventually found toll-like molecules in worms, mice, even plants. Plant geneticist Santosh Misra, PhD, and colleagues at the University of Victoria in British Columbia genetically engineered antimicrobial peptides into potatoes to get the crops to withstand fungal infection. Protective compounds produced by plants could conceivably work as new classes of antibiotics in people as well.
"
The History Behind The Discovery of toll-like Receptors < Yale School of Medicine
I love the gratuitous
Darwinist propaganda in that passage, as if none of the knowledge described could have been gained without recognizing the "evolutionary connections".
That sort of Darwinist spin reminds me of David Attenborough's nature shows. Due to his missionary zeal, Attenborough can't simply present a nature show ... he's got to ram a sermon about Darwinian evolution down viewers throats as well, as if it's vitally important.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1188 by Taq, posted 12-01-2022 11:12 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1205 by Phat, posted 12-06-2022 9:59 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1208 by Taq, posted 12-06-2022 10:41 AM Dredge has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1205 of 1429 (903193)
12-06-2022 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1204 by Dredge
12-06-2022 7:48 AM


Darwinist Propaganda
I've got a question.
Dredge writes:
...I love the gratuitous
Darwinist propaganda...
Darwin has been dead since 1882. Many other names have been associated with evolutionary theory since then. So why do critics of evolution always refer to the study as Darwinism?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 7:48 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1206 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2022 10:31 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1212 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 12:03 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1225 by dwise1, posted 12-07-2022 12:56 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1206 of 1429 (903196)
12-06-2022 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1205 by Phat
12-06-2022 9:59 AM


Re: Darwinist Propaganda
Phat writes:
So why do critics of evolution always refer to the study as Darwinism?
Because they know nothing about the theory of evolution, but need a named enemy.
It's actually quite useful as it immediately identifies them as a clueless fundamentalist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1205 by Phat, posted 12-06-2022 9:59 AM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 1207 of 1429 (903199)
12-06-2022 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1200 by Dredge
12-05-2022 7:17 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
The discussion is not about an "hypothesis" or "doing science" ... it's about a practical use in medical science or biology for the theory of UCD.
And I have given you examples of just that.
Your response?
An "hypothesis" per se is just an idea floating around in someone's mind, not a practical use.
It is absolutely a practical use. Finding routes for research is a very, very practical application for any theory.
If the article you provided in Message 1109 describes a practical use in medical science or biology for the theory of UCD, what is it, exactly?
The practical use is in selecting animal models that will yield the best results in biomedical research.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1200 by Dredge, posted 12-05-2022 7:17 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1312 by Dredge, posted 12-17-2022 5:42 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 1208 of 1429 (903202)
12-06-2022 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1204 by Dredge
12-06-2022 7:48 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
On the contrary, the article describes how Medzhitov noticed (from Hoffman's work) "that flies with defects in their toll genes became hypersusceptible to fungal infection."

That observation gave Medzhitov the idea that toll genes might act as a sensor, and he then applied that idea to the human immune system.

So what Medzhitov performed was simply an exercise in comparative physiology ... which doesn't require the theory of UCD.
False. Scientists apply phylogenies which are based on evolutionary histories.
Darwinist propaganda in that passage, as if none of the knowledge described could have been gained without recognizing the "evolutionary connections".
The knowledge was gained through our understanding of evolution and the evolutionary history of life. It appears my analogy was dead on:
Frank: Airplanes are useless as modes of transportation.
Abe: That's not true. I flew in an airplane from Boston to Atlanta, and it worked great.
Frank: That doesn't count since you could have driven in a car from Boston to Atlanta.
Abe: But I didn't drive in a car. I flew in an airplane.
Frank: Well, you didn't have to fly, so airplanes are still useless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 7:48 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1209 by xongsmith, posted 12-06-2022 11:20 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 1323 by Dredge, posted 12-18-2022 9:21 AM Taq has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 1209 of 1429 (903211)
12-06-2022 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1208 by Taq
12-06-2022 10:41 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Taq writes:
It appears my analogy was dead on:

Frank: Airplanes are useless as modes of transportation.
Abe: That's not true. I flew in an airplane from Boston to Atlanta, and it worked great.
Frank: That doesn't count since you could have driven in a car from Boston to Atlanta.
Abe: But I didn't drive in a car. I flew in an airplane.
Frank: Well, you didn't have to fly, so airplanes are still useless.
My old friend in college used to rue that analogies never work.
In this case, he is confirmed, because we still don't have the car analogy to drive to Atlanta. The only way in the analogy is to fly.
Maybe if it was the huge rocket to get an astronaut to the moon:
Dredge: Rockets are useless as a way to get to the moon.
Abe: That's not true. The Apollo 11 crew flew on a rocket from Earth to the moon, and it worked great.
Dredge: That doesn't count since in the crew cabin itself there was no rocket.
Abe: But they flew on a rocket.
Dredge: Well, there is no evidence of a rocket in any of the interior footage of the crew cabins, not on any of the lights and switches, so rockets are still useless.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1208 by Taq, posted 12-06-2022 10:41 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1216 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 12:25 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1210 of 1429 (903217)
12-06-2022 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1200 by Dredge
12-05-2022 7:17 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
... it's about a practical use in medical science or biology for the theory of UCD.
I gave you that way, way, way, way back: Cow and pig insulin. It wasn't a creationist who thought of that. Somebody who knew about UCD said, "Hmm... maybe we can get a donations from our cousins the cows and pigs."

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1200 by Dredge, posted 12-05-2022 7:17 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1214 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 12:20 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1336 by Dredge, posted 12-19-2022 1:30 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1211 of 1429 (903218)
12-06-2022 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1203 by Dredge
12-06-2022 5:06 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
... an APauling testament to your lack of discernment, your inability to learn and your on-going struggle with cognitive dissonance.
An IQ of 9 would suggest that YOU are the one with a lack of discernment, an inability to learn and an on-going struggle with cognitive dissonance.
You really should never have admitted to being so stupid. It colors everything you say.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1203 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 5:06 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1213 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 12:07 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1337 by Dredge, posted 12-19-2022 1:32 AM ringo has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1212 of 1429 (903219)
12-06-2022 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1205 by Phat
12-06-2022 9:59 AM


Re: Darwinist Propaganda
Phat writes:
why do critics of evolution always refer to the study as Darwinism?
Not everyone who accepts that life on earth has evolved accepts that neo-Darwinism offers a satisfactory explanation for that evolution.
In other words, not all evolutionists are Darwinoids (aka Darwinists).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1205 by Phat, posted 12-06-2022 9:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1229 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 9:03 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1213 of 1429 (903221)
12-06-2022 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1211 by ringo
12-06-2022 11:49 AM


Re: UCD evidence
ringoat writes:
An IQ of 9 would suggest that YOU are the one with a lack of discernment, an inability to learn and an on-going struggle with cognitive dissonance.

You really should never have admitted to being so stupid. It colors everything you say.
Isn't it about time you admitted the obvious ... that you're even more retarded than I am?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1211 by ringo, posted 12-06-2022 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1215 by ringo, posted 12-06-2022 12:21 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1214 of 1429 (903222)
12-06-2022 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1210 by ringo
12-06-2022 11:45 AM


Re: UCD evidence
ringoat writes:
I gave you that way, way, way, way back: Cow and pig insulin. It wasn't a creationist who thought of that. Somebody who knew about UCD said, "Hmm... maybe we can get a donations from our cousins the cows and pigs."
No need to be a UCD-believing Darwinoid to think of using cow and pig insulin in humans. All one needs is a big of common sense ... as in "Golly gee whiz, since humans are mammals, maybe insulin from other mammals - such as cows and pigs - will work in humans. Let's try it." A pretty basic idea, really.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1210 by ringo, posted 12-06-2022 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1217 by ringo, posted 12-06-2022 12:26 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1218 by Taq, posted 12-06-2022 12:41 PM Dredge has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1215 of 1429 (903223)
12-06-2022 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1213 by Dredge
12-06-2022 12:07 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Isn't it about time you admitted the obvious ... that you're even more retarded than I am?
Isn't it about time YOU admitted the obvious ... that YOU are in no position to call anybody "retarded"?
Seriously, if you had any self-respect, you'd turn red and slink away in shame.
Feel free to come back in a month or so with the same stupid ideas. That's the way of the creationist. Just don't admit to being stupid next time. Let your stupid ideas speak for themselves.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1213 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 12:07 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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