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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 1186 of 1429 (903038)
12-01-2022 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1185 by Dredge
12-01-2022 4:42 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
More Darwinist delusion. Wake up, Dopey ... scientists didn't need the theory of UCD to determine how TRLs work in fruit flies, humans or any other mammal.
Prove it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1185 by Dredge, posted 12-01-2022 4:42 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1187 by Dredge, posted 12-01-2022 11:05 AM Taq has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1187 of 1429 (903039)
12-01-2022 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1186 by Taq
12-01-2022 10:39 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Taq writes:
Prove it.
You want me to prove a negative?
Prove it.
Speaking of which ...
In Message 1184 you made this claim:
"These receptors were first discovered in fruit flies, and through common descent we were able to determine how they worked in humans and other mammals." (emphasis added)
But you can't prove that it was "through common descent" that scientists determined how TLRs work.
As usual, all you've done is make a bare assertion. You've repeatedly failed to support your delusion with facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1186 by Taq, posted 12-01-2022 10:39 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1188 by Taq, posted 12-01-2022 11:12 AM Dredge has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 1188 of 1429 (903040)
12-01-2022 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1187 by Dredge
12-01-2022 11:05 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
You want me to prove a negative?
The fact of the matter is that they used UCD to discover the role of toll-like receptors in the human genome. You asked for examples. This is one of them.
But you can't prove that it was "through common descent" that scientists determined how TLRs work.
It was because of UCD that they hypothesized toll proteins would have the same function in humans as it does in fruit flies.
quote:
Two and a half years later, the idea of innate immunity in humans and its connections to defense in invertebrates had already taken hold. At least 150 scientists gathered at a National Academy of Sciences colloquium in Irvine, Calif., entitled “Virulence and Defense in Host-Pathogen Interactions: Common Features between Plants and Animals.” At the meeting, 12 researchers specifically discussed their work on toll in flies and “toll-like receptors”—as the mammalian versions are now known—and other aspects of innate immunity. Two dozen other scientists focused on patterns common to the insect and mammalian pathogens.
By March 2001, scientists had found 10 other human toll-like receptors, including toll-like receptor 2, which Shizuo Akira, MD, and colleagues at Osaka University showed responds to a particular sequence found in bacterial DNA but not in mammalian DNA. To get an idea of how fast the field has grown since 1997, a literature search for the term “toll-like receptor” in 2022 brought up more than 56,000 abstracts.
The evolutionary connections also awed researchers, as they eventually found toll-like molecules in worms, mice, even plants. Plant geneticist Santosh Misra, PhD, and colleagues at the University of Victoria in British Columbia genetically engineered antimicrobial peptides into potatoes to get the crops to withstand fungal infection. Protective compounds produced by plants could conceivably work as new classes of antibiotics in people as well.
The History Behind The Discovery of toll-like Receptors < Yale School of Medicine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1187 by Dredge, posted 12-01-2022 11:05 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1189 by Theodoric, posted 12-01-2022 3:36 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 1204 by Dredge, posted 12-06-2022 7:48 AM Taq has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1189 of 1429 (903042)
12-01-2022 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1188 by Taq
12-01-2022 11:12 AM


Re: UCD evidence
I like how he sets the pins up so you can knock 'em down. I believe that was a strike.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1188 by Taq, posted 12-01-2022 11:12 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1190 by xongsmith, posted 12-01-2022 5:48 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 1190 of 1429 (903048)
12-01-2022 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1189 by Theodoric
12-01-2022 3:36 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Theodoric writes:
I like how he sets the pins up so you (Taq) can knock 'em down. I believe that was a strike.
Agree. I'm learning a lot in this thread.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1189 by Theodoric, posted 12-01-2022 3:36 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1192 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-01-2022 6:40 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(6)
Message 1191 of 1429 (903049)
12-01-2022 6:11 PM


Analogy
An analogy for this thread:
Frank: Airplanes are useless as modes of transportation.
Abe: That's not true. I flew in an airplane from Boston to Atlanta, and it worked great.
Frank: That doesn't count since you could have driven in a car from Boston to Atlanta.
Abe: But I didn't drive in a car. I flew in an airplane.
Frank: Well, you didn't have to fly, so airplanes are still useless.

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 1192 of 1429 (903051)
12-01-2022 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1190 by xongsmith
12-01-2022 5:48 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Xong writes:
Theodoric writes:
I like how he sets the pins up so you (Taq) can knock 'em down. I believe that was a strike.
Agree. I'm learning a lot in this thread.
That's why I still like coming here, I learn new things and see well reasoned, articulate arguments, supported by evidence.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1190 by xongsmith, posted 12-01-2022 5:48 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1193 of 1429 (903092)
12-03-2022 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Taq
11-18-2022 4:14 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Taq writes:
Darwin’s description of “descent with modification” points to two aspects of evolution that can help us assess the matching between a prospective model species and its intended target ...
Phylogenetic trees provide such context not only by highlighting phenotypic differences and similarities, but also by supporting inferences about the source of similarity. Understanding how evolution has endowed different species with similar traits is relevant both to the initial choice of model for studying a particular question, and then to the interpretation (and potential translation) of results. The two evolutionary routes to similarity are (1) shared ancestry, or homology, and (2) a history of common selection pressures, leading to convergence.
"
Selection of Models: Evolution and the Choice of Species for Translational Research - FullText - Brain, Behavior and Evolution 2019, Vol. 93, No. 2-3 - Karger Publishers
That is pure speculation ... no one can possibly know "how evolution has endowed different species with similar traits". Basing research models on pure speculation sounds like a very dumb idea to me.
"Even though the distinction between homology-based and convergence-based models is not absolute, it offers a useful heuristic for thinking about how we select and employ them. Similarity due to homology and that due to convergence lead to different warrants for extrapolation, and disparate expectations for wider matching. In the case of similarity due to homology, we predict better overall representation of the model species’ closer phylogenetic relatives, a better warrant for expecting similarity in additional traits that share ancestry, and stronger inference to closer relatives. In contrast, similarities between model and target that are due to convergence generate different predictions. Here, we expect better representation of other species subject to similar selective pressures, and a stronger warrant for expecting similarity in additional traits with related adaptive functions – but no inferential premium for relatives 
Selection of Models: Evolution and the Choice of Species for Translational Research - FullText - Brain, Behavior and Evolution 2019, Vol. 93, No. 2-3 - Karger Publishers
"we predict"? "we expect"? Is that all the author has to offer ... wishful thinking?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Taq, posted 11-18-2022 4:14 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1194 by AZPaul3, posted 12-03-2022 11:37 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1198 by Taq, posted 12-05-2022 1:46 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1199 by AZPaul3, posted 12-05-2022 4:05 PM Dredge has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1194 of 1429 (903093)
12-03-2022 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1193 by Dredge
12-03-2022 9:51 PM


Re: UCD evidence
So, let me get this straight. In place of the above you are offering stale crackers with 2000 year old jesus-meat, right?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1193 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2022 9:51 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1195 by Dredge, posted 12-04-2022 12:03 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1195 of 1429 (903094)
12-04-2022 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1194 by AZPaul3
12-03-2022 11:37 PM


Re: UCD evidence
If you're trying to compare religion to science, you're in the wrong thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by AZPaul3, posted 12-03-2022 11:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1196 by AZPaul3, posted 12-04-2022 1:47 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1196 of 1429 (903095)
12-04-2022 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1195 by Dredge
12-04-2022 12:03 AM


Re: UCD evidence
If you're trying to kill UCD and evolution then you are on the wrong planet.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1195 by Dredge, posted 12-04-2022 12:03 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1197 of 1429 (903162)
12-05-2022 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1171 by Dredge
11-28-2022 2:19 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
That's fascinating.
You sound like a baby who's fascinated by the mobile above his crib.
Mind you, his IQ is higher than yours.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1171 by Dredge, posted 11-28-2022 2:19 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 1198 of 1429 (903165)
12-05-2022 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1193 by Dredge
12-03-2022 9:51 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
That is pure speculation ... no one can possibly know "how evolution has endowed different species with similar traits".
"Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."--Mark Twain
Sorry, but refusing to accept reality is not a valid refutation. We can know, and we do know.
"we predict"? "we expect"? Is that all the author has to offer ... wishful thinking?
It's called a hypothesis, otherwise known as "doing science". Now you are rejecting science as a whole.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1193 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2022 9:51 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1200 by Dredge, posted 12-05-2022 7:17 PM Taq has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 1199 of 1429 (903170)
12-05-2022 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1193 by Dredge
12-03-2022 9:51 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Basing research models on pure speculation sounds like a very dumb idea to me.
As you have shown us, accepting the preponderance of the evidence also sounds like a very dumb idea to you. Evidenced reality is a dumb idea to you. But an unevidenced talking snake and 2000 year old jesus meat are absolute TRVTH © TM SM ®. The very apex of your intellectual chain.
And you want your church to make important life decisions for the rest of us? When your hell freezes over and we can all go skiing.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1193 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2022 9:51 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1201 by Dredge, posted 12-05-2022 7:24 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1200 of 1429 (903176)
12-05-2022 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1198 by Taq
12-05-2022 1:46 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Taq writes:
It's called a hypothesis, otherwise known as "doing science".
Do try and keep on topic. The discussion is not about an "hypothesis" or "doing science" ... it's about a practical use in medical science or biology for the theory of UCD.
An "hypothesis" per se is just an idea floating around in someone's mind, not a practical use.
If the article you provided in Message 1109 describes a practical use in medical science or biology for the theory of UCD, what is it, exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1198 by Taq, posted 12-05-2022 1:46 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1207 by Taq, posted 12-06-2022 10:37 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1210 by ringo, posted 12-06-2022 11:45 AM Dredge has replied

  
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