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Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I tried to find your paper and ended up reading a rebuttal direceted at you over at Panda's Thumb. Why did they ban you?
Joe Felsenstein: The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Theodoric:Then you are both wrong. The difference between an open and closed system is that in the closed system, neither energy, matter, nor entropy can be transported across that boundary. In an open system, energy, matter, and entropy can be transported that boundary and you must include those components in your calculation. The laws of thermodynamics apply to both open and closed systems and you had better choose a better expert. Here are a couple of links that show you how to calculate entropy in an open system. Second law of thermodynamics - Wikipedia Starts at For open systems (also allowing exchange of matter):
6.10 Applications of the second law of thermodynamics in open systems – Introduction to Engineering Thermodynamics
6.10 Applications of the second law of thermodynamics in open systems Real engineering (and biological) problems involve open systems. And both open and closed systems are governed by the laws of thermodynamics. You and your so-called expert can't solve real problems including descent with modification. You have a made-up expert that doesn't understand the difference between an open and closed system.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Phat:Which paper are you looking for? Felsenstein banned me because I told him he would be held accountable for his blunders. His two blunders are that he uses the wrong equation(s) to do his phylogenetics in his statistical model. And much worse than that, he doesn't do random sampling of his data when doing his statistical analysis. In addition, he refuses to apply any of his models to real examples of evolution, the Kishony and Lenski experiment. All his work is strictly theoretical, he refuses to apply any of his models to actual examples of biological evolution that are real, measurable, and repeatable. I believe he won't do this because he knows his models are wrong. Here's what he said on the "Sandwalk" blog: Contingency, selection, and the long-term evolution experiment Joe Felsenstein:It should be pointed out that Felsenstein does his phylogenetics with equations that don't include natural selection. Descent with modification does not include a term for natural selection (relative fitness) because it is a different process than biological competition (which Felsenstein also does not include in his math). That's why his math won't work for the Lenski experiment, Felsenstein doesn't include biological competition. And my math is correct, once an adaptive mutation occurs, it doesn't matter how many replications that variant does because the number of those beneficial mutations will always be much larger than any that occur by further mutation. That's exactly what the Kishony experiment demonstrated. In addition, Felsenstein doesn't understand how thermodynamics applies to biological evolution. He tries to figure it out in this Cambridge Lecture:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF3nIMvBBDw&ab_channel=Fi... His discussion on thermodynamics starts at about 21:58 but he still doesn't understand the distinction between biological competition and descent with modification.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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But you do not seem to grasp that in an open system there is no limit on usable energy.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Explain the equation and the energy component.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Theodoric:An infinite carrying capacity environment only exists in your imagination. But, go for it, tell us where there is an environment with no limit on usable energy.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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I am always stunned by the hubris of cranks and trolls. The amount of narcissism it must take in order to believe you know more than every expert in the field. To think that you are the world's leading expert in a subject you have no advanced education in is not just stunning but shows a severe mental health defect.
You are truly a god among me. Not because of your knowledge or scientific arguments, but because of your conceit, hubris, and narcissism. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Theodoric:Which equation and what energy? If you are talking about biological competition and descent with modification, I've already explained how energy relates to biological competition and the Markov equation explains how entropy increases. The Markov process can't occur if there isn't sufficient energy for replication.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
We are talking about life and life processes. So on Earth, the usable energy is (for all intents and purposes) unlimited.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
The equation in the wiki article you linked to.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Theodoric:I guess that means you won't tell us of an environment with infinite carrying capacity. Perhaps your expert can help you. You know, the one that thinks that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to open systems.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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Another strawman.
I guess that means you won't tell us of an environment with infinite carrying capacity.
I never said anything about infinite carrying capacity. Liar, dishonest, narcissistic crank. I hope Admin takes the lead of Panda's Thumb and deals with you.What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Theodoric:Is that so, so no overpopulation and no competition? And unlimited energy?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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Another strawman.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Theodoric:In which case? That's a general equation and several of the terms go to zero for the Kishony and Lenski experiments. But, at least you know that very stupid idea that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to open systems is wrong. Your so-called expert should know that the laws of thermodynamics apply to open systems even if someone so poorly trained as you don't.
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