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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2131 of 2926 (902567)
11-25-2022 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2124 by Theodoric
11-25-2022 10:54 AM


Re: 1st law of Theromdynamics
Theodoric:
You keep bringing up the 1st Law of Thermodynamics but have yet explained why you think its is relevant or an explanation of how it affects evolution.

Go for it,
Again? All right, for you.
1. It takes energy to survive and replicate
2. The carrying capacity of an environment represents the total amount of usable energy available for populations.
3. The most effective variant using that energy will have higher reproductive fitness than less effective variants and over time, the most effective variant may fix and the less effective variants will be driven to extinction.
4. This competition between different variants will reduce the number of replications that any variants can do reducing the number of replications of all variants in the population slowing the descent with modification process and adaptation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2124 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 10:54 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2140 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 12:53 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2132 of 2926 (902568)
11-25-2022 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2125 by ringo
11-25-2022 10:54 AM


Re: Kleinman still does not know asexual vs sexual
Theodoric:
He must be a real hit with the ladies.
ringo:
He keeps waiting for them to bud.

So thermodynamics isn't the only subject you have mastered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2125 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2137 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:45 PM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2133 of 2926 (902569)
11-25-2022 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2126 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 12:04 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
All you have to do is post a link that shows how antimicrobial resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
That has nothing to do with what I said.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2126 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:04 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2141 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 1:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2134 of 2926 (902570)
11-25-2022 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2128 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 12:07 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
... you can be wrong about whatever you want.
I prefer to stick with the people who know what they're talking about.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2128 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:07 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2142 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 1:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2135 of 2926 (902571)
11-25-2022 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2129 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 12:08 PM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
Kleinman writes:
So, you never studied thermodynamics?
I had the same professor for two classes. He told us that the first time he did thermodynamics, as an undergraduate, he didn't understand it. The second time he did it, as a grad student, he thought he understood it. But when he had to teach it, he realized he didn't understand it as well as he thought.
I only offered you a KINDERGARTEN-level thermodynamics lesson because I don't pretend to be an expert thermodynamicist - and I don't expect you to understand anything but the kindergarten level.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2129 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:08 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2143 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 1:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2136 of 2926 (902572)
11-25-2022 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2130 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 12:10 PM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman writes:
You have shown you know the ABCs of biological evolution.
And you are still showing that you don't.
You have been saying that C evolved from B. That is a serious misunderstanding of biology AND a serious misunderstanding of mathemqtics.

Do you understand yet that you are wrong about B evolving into C?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2130 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:10 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2144 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 1:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 2137 of 2926 (902574)
11-25-2022 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2132 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 12:12 PM


Re: Kleinman still does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman writes:
So thermodynamics isn't the only subject you have mastered.
I know there's a difference between sexual and asexual reproduction, which you can't seem to grasp. And I know that you can't discuss DNA without understanding that asexual reproduction involves one parent while sexual reproduction involves the combination of two parents. You don't seem to grasp that either.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2132 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:12 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2145 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 1:17 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 2138 of 2926 (902575)
11-25-2022 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2127 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 12:06 PM


King of the strawman
So, you are claiming that combination therapy doesn't work for HIV, weeds, and insects? Your speculations about sexual reproduction and asexual reproduction are countered by the facts.
Please show where I have said anything remotely similar to this. I am addressing your dishonest posts. I will leave it up to those more capable than I am to address your lack of understanding of the math and science. I will concentrate on your logical fallacies, deceitful posts and your lies.
Just because you do not understand Lenski does not mean he has to alter the findings to meet the expectations of a known crank.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2127 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:06 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2146 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 1:21 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 2139 of 2926 (902576)
11-25-2022 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2130 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 12:10 PM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
I notice you did not answer. I think we can assume you do not know or have an answer for any question you do not answer.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2130 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:10 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2147 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 1:22 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2140 of 2926 (902577)
11-25-2022 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2131 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 12:11 PM


Re: 1st law of Theromdynamics
All you are doing is spouting. You need to provide evidence and show what each of these points actually affect real world situations. Asserting shows nothing.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2131 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:11 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2148 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 1:26 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2141 of 2926 (902580)
11-25-2022 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2133 by ringo
11-25-2022 12:23 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
All you have to do is post a link that shows how antimicrobial resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
ringo:
That has nothing to do with what I said.

Sure it does! You keep claiming that biologists have explained how antimicrobial drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. They have not explained it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2133 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2169 by ringo, posted 11-26-2022 10:39 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2142 of 2926 (902581)
11-25-2022 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2134 by ringo
11-25-2022 12:26 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
... you can be wrong about whatever you want.
ringo:
I prefer to stick with the people who know what they're talking about.

So, post a link written by a biologist that explains how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2134 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2170 by ringo, posted 11-26-2022 10:42 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2143 of 2926 (902583)
11-25-2022 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2135 by ringo
11-25-2022 12:32 PM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
Kleinman:
So, you never studied thermodynamics?
ringo:
I had the same professor for two classes. He told us that the first time he did thermodynamics, as an undergraduate, he didn't understand it. The second time he did it, as a grad student, he thought he understood it. But when he had to teach it, he realized he didn't understand it as well as he thought.

I only offered you a KINDERGARTEN-level thermodynamics lesson because I don't pretend to be an expert thermodynamicist - and I don't expect you to understand anything but the kindergarten level.

You had an impressive instructor.
The thermodynamics that applies to competition is pretty simple. The hardest part of doing the mathematics for the Lenski experiment is the bottleneck which introduces a discontinuity into the mathematics. That discontinuity was not that difficult to deal with if you have experience dealing with discontinuities. I published an engineering paper years ago that dealt with a discontinuity. That's way out of your ballpark.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2135 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2155 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-25-2022 3:32 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2171 by ringo, posted 11-26-2022 10:47 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2144 of 2926 (902584)
11-25-2022 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2136 by ringo
11-25-2022 12:34 PM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
You have shown you know the ABCs of biological evolution.
ringo:
And you are still showing that you don't.

You have been saying that C evolved from B. That is a serious misunderstanding of biology AND a serious misunderstanding of mathemqtics.

Do you understand yet that you are wrong about B evolving into C?

Your an expert. Now show us how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatment fail. Which letter is that? Maybe you better go to the letter "E" for the Kishony experiment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2136 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2149 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 2:43 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2172 by ringo, posted 11-26-2022 10:52 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2145 of 2926 (902585)
11-25-2022 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2137 by ringo
11-25-2022 12:45 PM


Re: Kleinman still does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
So thermodynamics isn't the only subject you have mastered.
ringo:
I know there's a difference between sexual and asexual reproduction, which you can't seem to grasp. And I know that you can't discuss DNA without understanding that asexual reproduction involves one parent while sexual reproduction involves the combination of two parents. You don't seem to grasp that either.

So, show us how you do the mathematics of recombination in a population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2137 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2173 by ringo, posted 11-26-2022 10:54 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
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