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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1297 of 3694 (901159)
11-05-2022 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1296 by GDR
11-05-2022 1:42 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Frankly I don't know what most Christians believe. However the messianic prophesies were about bringing about the end of the age which would be the end of Roman occupation.

That is how they might be interpreted at the time of Jesus. It certainly isn’t how Jews interpret them now. Or how they were originally meant,
quote:
How about quoting what is what that I was replying to so I can know what you are talking about.
How about using the handy links at the bottom of each post to see?
To be clear my point is that I believe that Jesus did not fulfil the Messianic prophecies, so his followers - those that did not abandon the cult - made up excuses to get around that. Hence the Second Coming. (And please don’t suggest that they wouldn’t make up excuses - you certainly do).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1296 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 1:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1340 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:34 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1299 of 3694 (901162)
11-05-2022 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by GDR
11-05-2022 1:59 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
That fits with what I believe. Matthew wrote his Gospel first in Hebrew and that is the one the Nazoreans held on to. It was later that someone, most likely Matthew again translated it into a Greek version
So you think that the Gospel of the Hebrews is the real Gospel written by Matthew, not the one we call “Matthew”? Because that is what you just said,
quote:
When John writes that the Word became flesh, he is making a statement that is holistically consistent with the whole NT. I'm not 100% sure what your point is.
My point is that your original claim - which only used the phrase “Son of Man” - was false.
Also the Jewish nation at had two particular hopes for the future. One was the return of Yahweh to their nation and the other was that of a messiah who would be a man anointed by God to lead them against Rome. The Gospels story essentially sees Jesus as fulfilling both of those hopes but in a very different way than what the Jews expected.

Jesus used the term "son of man" which combined both hopes.
It is not the term at all. It is Christian beliefs added after Jesus’ death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 1:59 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1341 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:55 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1310 of 3694 (901274)
11-07-2022 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1309 by GDR
11-07-2022 2:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
No, it is Roman intervention
Really? Mark 13
26 “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels and gather the elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
You think that that’s the Romans doing that ?
Consider also verses 33-36 - do you really think that the metaphorical “master of the house” is the Romans?
And then look at Daniel 7, which is clearly alluded to:
27 The kingship and dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High;
their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey them.”
Do you really think that the Romans are going to arrange that? Rather than, say, mass executions for the rebellious Jews?
quote:
I'd call it a metaphor with a futuristic prediction.
You can call the “dream” a metaphor if you like but the explanation seems to be intended literally.
quote:
The term "Son of Man" was used as you say to in reference to one being human ,but it also over time came to have a messianic understanding.
Since we don’t know for sure exactly what Jesus said, trying to parse his words closely is futile. We can’t be certain how often he used the phrase referring to himself (perhaps not at all) or what he meant by it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1309 by GDR, posted 11-07-2022 2:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1352 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 6:21 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1342 of 3694 (901435)
11-10-2022 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1340 by GDR
11-09-2022 8:34 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Well I can't imagine that the present day Jews see it that way as the Roman occupation is long over. However the 1st century Jews did see the end of the age being about the end of Roman occupation.
Which is just an interpretation popular at the time, not the originally intended meaning, nor one with any special claim to be “the” meaning.
quote:
Jesus did not fulfil the the messianic role that the majority of 1st century Jews envisioned. He di not raise an army to drive out the Romans. Using passages like the suffering servant i Isaiah Jesus as messiah was very different that the messiah that they had hoped for
Which ones did he fulfil? The “suffering servant” in Isaiah hardly qualifies.
quote:
I agree, that as always Christians will contend that Christ will return in their life times, and they quite likely have and will make up excuses. However, I contend that Jesus didn't focus on the world as it will be, but on the world here and now
Which is rather at odds with predictive prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1340 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:34 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1343 of 3694 (901436)
11-10-2022 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1341 by GDR
11-09-2022 8:55 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Yes, but not to be confused with the NT book of Hebrews.
Indeed, the Gospel of the Hebrews is not in the NT at all. By the way, how did you convince yoursek& it was the “real” Matthew? Just because Jerome said so?
quote:
It was simply that the Gospel of Matthew was written primarily for the Hebrews.
Are you talking about the non-canonical Gospel of the Hebrews - which you call the “real” Matthew here? Or are you just making an irrelevant comment about the canonical Matthew?
quote:
To a degree I have to agree with that. However, I also contend that Jesus understood it the way I stated
On what basis do you contend that Jesus agreed with your thinking?
quote:
The disciples could not get it through their head that Jesus was going to somehow rid them of the Romans. He didn't have an army but these miracles kept happening so they would have concluded that Yahweh was behind Jesus and so He would come and defeat the enemy the way they envisioned.
As we’ve seen from Daniel and Zechariah the expectation was that God would give victory to the Jews, not an army. But God did not, even though Jesus reportedly stoked such ideas by alluding to Daniel.
quote:
After the resurrection they started to think more deeply what it was that Jesus taught and we've been doing that for 2000 years.

Or distorted it based on their wants and needs, and the wants and needs of their successors. The growing hostility to the Jews and the desire to fit in with Rome were no doubt major factors. The attempts to blame the Jews rather than the Romans for Jesus’ death include rather obvious distortions of this sort.
quote:
Interestingly enough even after the resurrection we can see that the disciples still thought that Jesus had returned to eject the Romans from the area as we can see in Acts 1. It took them a while to figure it all out, which they did reflecting on it all
I note that you do not mention that Jesus implies that he will do just that. He talks about when it will happen, rather than offering any correction on what will happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1341 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:55 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1355 of 3694 (901551)
11-11-2022 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1352 by GDR
11-10-2022 6:21 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Mark 13 is a prediction of what the Romans will do in response to a military revolution.
It’s more than that as I showed,
quote:
There are numerous reasons to know that . Here is Mark 13:14.
Which “predicts” how the Romans would provoke a rebellion - as well as alluding to Daniel which predicts that God would intervene to save the Jews.
quote:
You quoted Mark 13:26.
Indeed, to show that it is not about the Romans.
quote:
This is about Jesus coming to Yahweh not coming to Earth
I would point out that it indicates that Jesus would be seen doing so and that the elect would be gathered by angels. Also, Mark 13:20 indicates that God has “cut short” the tribulation to preserve the elect, indicating that the elect are alive on Earth at the time they are gathered. (And if the Tribulation is the Roman military response that would also point to divine intervention)
quote:
It is by the destruction of the Temple that this heavenly occurrence has transpired.
Neither Mark nor Daniel make such a claim (indeed, the Temple is not destroyed in Daniel). That is simply your invention.
quote:
No, it is about how the destruction of the Temple vindicates Jesus' non violent message
Other than wishful thinking, how do you derive that from the text?
quote:
The quote from Daniel is about the desolation of the Temple by the Babylonians
Nonsense. It is about desecration of the Temple by the Seleucids. Which had already occurred at the time of writing.
quote:
The quote from Mark 13 is referring to the Daniel quote about the predicted destruction of the second Temple.
Daniel does not predict the destruction of the second Temple. Daniel “predicts” the desecration by Antiochus and predicts that the Temple will survive and be resanctified,
quote:
Part of that quote to is the suggestion to head to the hills which of course makes sense if there is a military battle but no sense if it is about the end of the world.
As I have already shown it makes perfect sense given the Jewish understanding of the End Times. (See Zechariah 14 for an example).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1352 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 6:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1540 by GDR, posted 12-08-2022 3:30 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1377 of 3694 (902231)
11-19-2022 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1376 by Percy
11-19-2022 3:36 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
They had to explain his opposition to the Pharisees else his death at their hands (in effect) would make no sense.
I think that should be Sadducees, Percy. Or maybe the Sanhedrin. Certainly not the Pharisees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1376 by Percy, posted 11-19-2022 3:36 PM Percy has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1381 of 3694 (902312)
11-21-2022 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1380 by GDR
11-21-2022 2:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
I gave you evidence such as why would He tell them to head for the hills if it is about the end of the world
Because there is no reason to run away if a gentile army is going to storm Jerusalem, murdering and raping the inhabitants? Jewish end-times prophecies do not fit with your ideas about “the end of the world”. As I’ve pointed out to you more than once.
The only daft thing is Luke’s idea of waiting until the attacking army surrounds the city.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1380 by GDR, posted 11-21-2022 2:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1383 by GDR, posted 11-22-2022 4:25 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1384 of 3694 (902375)
11-22-2022 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1383 by GDR
11-22-2022 4:25 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Firstly, I wish you would tell me what my views of the end of the world are
I am going on what you say. You claim that there would be no point in running away from Jerusalem. Which is quite enough.
quote:
The first verse refers back to Daniel 9 and is about the destruction caused by war. Then he tells them to get out of town and quickly before there is no escape.

He adds that it will be particularly hard for young mothers and hopefully it won't take place in winter.

This is obviously about a war and not end times.

Which proves that you are still wilfully ignoring Jewish ideas about the end times. Which are full of war. As you certainly ought to know by now.
quote:
As for Luke maybe we can cut him a little slack as he says when the army is surrounding Jerusalem and they should head for the hills, he does say that is for those who are in Judea which is a lot more than just Jerusalem.
So it is only too late for the people who most need to run. That’s helpful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1383 by GDR, posted 11-22-2022 4:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1385 by GDR, posted 11-23-2022 11:58 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1386 of 3694 (902432)
11-23-2022 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1385 by GDR
11-23-2022 11:58 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
I'm curious about what you think the Jewish ideas of end times were.
I think that the Zechariah quote was sufficient.
The Jews are attacked - and suffer - God intervenes to save them, and gives the Jews a preeminent place in the world. It’s the suffering of the first part that people would be running away from.
Often you’d get the restoration of the Davidic line and the return of the Lost Tribes, too.
quote:
Also, they talked about the end of the age but that was simply about the end of the Roman age or era.
But that would not be in the Tanakh - even though Daniel has references to Roman intervention in the wars, Rome wasn’t seen as a threat. And off hand I don’t think any of the other books of the Tanakh mention Rome at all - most are too early anyway.
quote:
I think you are kinda looking at this a bit too much in isolation. He did give a number of ways that they can see that this is coming so they will have plenty of warning.
The instruction to run to the hills is explicitly linked to the armies surrounding Jerusalem, which is both obvious and late. If the Romans had installed pagan worship in the Temple - as Matthew and Mark say - that would have been a trigger for revolt, but one that would give time to flee. Of course that didn’t happen, hence the change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1385 by GDR, posted 11-23-2022 11:58 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1388 by GDR, posted 11-23-2022 7:36 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1389 of 3694 (902475)
11-24-2022 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1388 by GDR
11-23-2022 7:36 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
I note that you don’t admit that there is a clear reason to run away given Jewish views. A fact already proven when you made the claim before.
quote:
I'm not clear on your point. What change are you referring to? The Romans surrounded Jerusalem as a result of the revolution.
It’s right there in the quote. Mark and Matthew say to run when the Romans start pagan worship in the Temple - which would have almost certainly provoked a revolt. Luke says that the sign to flee is armies surrounding Jerusalem which would not have happened until the Romans mobilised their forces to respond to the revolt (at the earliest).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1388 by GDR, posted 11-23-2022 7:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1396 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 2:44 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1397 of 3694 (902520)
11-24-2022 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1396 by GDR
11-24-2022 2:44 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
I don't believe that the Romans started pagan worship in the Temple
Yes, I’ve mentioned that before. That’s the reason for changing the prophecy.
quote:
At any rate it would be at least about the Roman occupation of the Temple and in reference to the Babylonian occupation back in 589 BC.
Of course it wouldn’t. It’s a reference to Antiochus Epiphanes erecting an altar to Zeus in the Temple. That’s what Daniel is talking about.
quote:
I don't see though why you believe that this was a view held generally by the Jews.
Please keep track of the context. That is what Matthew and Mark wrote, which was changed in Luke,
quote:
BTW, you said something about this suggesting a later writing. I just don't see that…
It’s pretty obvious. Something that didn’t happen (but might have happened - Caligula got very close) was replaced with something that did. Which is pretty easy with hindsight- but what would be the motivation to change the supposed words of Jesus otherwise?
quote:
..and in addition it is recorded as Him having said that not one stone would be left on another in regards to the Temple.
But Jesus did not say who would do the demolition, and as I have pointed out that demolition seems to come at the very end. (I also note that Jesus is supposed to have said that he would rebuild the Temple in 3 days. It’s a bit tricky to nail down, but it certainly seems plausible that that was related to this prophecy.)
quote:
I don't see though why you believe that this was a view held generally by the Jews
And I don’t see why you would think that when, I clearly said that that was what was in Matthew and Mark - and was changed in Luke.
The point I made about what the Jews believed is that the Jews believed that the End Times would feature a war which would go very badly for them until God intervened- and that provided adequate reason to run for the hills

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1396 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 2:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1402 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 8:06 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1409 of 3694 (902535)
11-25-2022 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1402 by GDR
11-24-2022 8:06 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Frankly, I'm not sure how you contend that the prophesy was changed
Luke has a noticeable difference (actually more than one) from Mark and Matthew. Luke is derived from at least one of those. Therefore the difference in Like is a change. It really isn’t at all hard to see. That it involves replacing an event which did not happen with one that did is evidence that the change was made after the predicted events.
quote:
Of course, but Jesus referred to it as paralleling the Babylonian situation to the Roman situation in which they lived.
I suppose you mean your presumed reference to Isaiah, although it is questionable whether it does come from Isaiah (I think Joel more likely).
quote:
It is clear that he is referencing the Romans for the demolition.
Given the fact that it is not mentioned, and God’s presumed intervention would defeat the Romans at the end I can’t see that as true at all.
quote:
Jesus conducted a counter Temple movement and that the current Temple culture was corrupt, a den of thieves even, and that era would end. Jesus saw Himself as the Temple replacement as the man who embodied the Word or nature of God and represented the return of Yahweh to the Jewish people for the world.
Which rather reinforces the point that it is Jesus who wants the Herodian Temple destroyed.
quote:
There are several details like that in the Gospels that don't line up with one another. Different authors.
You forget that we are discussing Luke, and even in your view Luke is derived from Matthew, not a first hand account. If Luke is copying from Matthew, any deviation is a change.
quote:
AbE BTW, I'm impressed with you knowledge in all of this. Is this something that you have studied previously or are you just googling around. In either case you have a good grasp of it.
I’ve discussed Daniel extensively here, and the Olivet Discourse has seen some serious discussion, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1402 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 8:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1412 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 10:46 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 1420 by GDR, posted 11-25-2022 2:29 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1410 of 3694 (902536)
11-25-2022 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1400 by GDR
11-24-2022 6:25 PM


Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
quote:
In many ways I suggest in looking at something like the resurrection of Jesus that I as a theist can look at it more objectively than an atheists can.
Since you are rather obviously very strongly biased not only in favour of the resurrection, but in favour of the idea that the evidence must support it, that is a self-serving falsehood. You merely like the idea that you are being objective about it, just as you like the idea that you primarily care about the truth.
quote:
As an atheist has decided that there is no cosmic intelligence involved in our existence then there can't be any reason to believe it to be historical.
Or, an atheist might simply note that an apparently miraculous event is likely font a miracle at all and would require strong evidence to justify belief. Which would be an objective viewpoint.
On the other hand, throwing out much of the Gospel accounts as irrelevant details, or insisting that the participants in a car accident could have no idea where the accident occurred - would be a very clear sign that you weren’t being objective at all. Dismissing evidence that doesn’t suit your conclusion without valid grounds for doing so is undeniable proof of bias.
Or in short your “suggestion” is an obvious and self-serving falsehood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1400 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 6:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1424 by GDR, posted 11-25-2022 2:58 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1422 of 3694 (902602)
11-25-2022 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1420 by GDR
11-25-2022 2:29 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Yes, I agree that Luke was written after Matthew and that Luke would be very familiar with what Matthew wrote.
Under your preferred hypothesis the author of Luke directly copied from the Gospel of Matthew.
quote:
Can you be specific as to what differences you are referring to?
What is wrong with the one we’ve been discussing? The signal to flee being changed from pagan worship in the Temple (which would set off a rebellion) to armies surrounding Jerusalem (after things have already started to go badly for the revolt).
quote:
Actually I had Daniel 9 in mind.
Since all the Daniel 9 references in the Olivet Discourse refer to events after the fall of Babylon then you must be wrong. Your Isaiah reference is about the fall of Babylon.
quote:
He was arguing against the revolution and who else are they going to revolt against. He is essentially saying that as the Babylonians did earlier, the Romans will destroy the Temple.

There is no reference to the Babylonian attack in the Olivet Discourse - and even if Jesus were alluding to Isaiah it would be to the fall of Babylon. Even the frame story in Daniel is set during the Exile (and by Daniel 9 Babylon has already fallen).
quote:
No. He predicted the destruction of the Temple as a result of a violent revolution.
In my view - which is consistent with the text - the Temple will be destroyed as part of God’s intervention.
quote:
He wanted reformation not destruction and part of the reformation would be that Gpd resides in the hearts of those who love Him and not is a Building.
Or - more consistent with Daniel - that a new and better Temple with a new priesthood will be established.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1420 by GDR, posted 11-25-2022 2:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1434 by GDR, posted 11-25-2022 8:46 PM PaulK has replied

  
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