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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1373 of 3694 (902211)
11-19-2022 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1218 by GDR
10-31-2022 2:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
For the supernatural? I never. Either you're having a hard time keeping people's positions straight, or you're being purposefully irritating.
Firstly, the Bible is a library of books written by men for a number of purposes. (In sone cases to justify the evil they were doing.) Most of it though, particularly in the OT was about what they had observed and what Jesus taught. We can look at the Bible as evidence but then we can make up our own minds as to whether or not we accept the Bible as being an historical account.
I'll agree that I'm replying to a number of people and it is sometimes difficult to keep everyone else's positions straight. I am trying hard not to be irritating.
Good to know, but I'll say it once more. I do not agree that the Bible is evidence for anything supernatural.
Percy writes:
No one objects to anyone forming their own beliefs, but you've gone way beyond that. You've claimed objective reality for your beliefs, that there's evidence for them.
I would like to see an example of that. If it is a belief it can't be an objective reality.
Not sure where the confusion lies here. Of course you're seeking evidence that would show that what you believe is objective reality. For example, you presented what you believe is evidence that Jesus was a real person.
GDR writes:
...as well as the various philosophical or theological books that in turn don’t have material evidence to support what is written in them.
Percy writes:
You began this message by mistakenly asserting that I'd acknowledged that the Bible is evidence, and you're concluding it by conceding that it isn't.
I'm not going to dig through this whole thread to find the quote and as far as I was concerned was that what I wrote was in agreement with what you had posted earlier.
So are you saying that the Gospel accounts aren't evidence? Can you then explain why they are not.
Of the supernatural? Of course the Gospel accounts and the rest of the Bible are not evidence of the supernatural. They're typical holy books. We've been through this. If you've truly forgotten prior discussion I guess we could go through it again.
They are obviously written to be believed as can be attested to by the fact that many at the time and still now do believe the accounts to be accurate to one degree or another.
I guess you've forgotten you said this already and it was rebutted already. The intent of the author is not a measure of fidelity to reality, nor is the number of people who believe his accounts. If this were so then many contradictory spiritual beliefs would have to be simultaneously true.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1218 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 2:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1374 by GDR, posted 11-19-2022 1:08 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1376 of 3694 (902229)
11-19-2022 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1221 by GDR
10-31-2022 3:36 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
And how do you know that the early Christians didn't do a lot of work to support their claims?
You have things backwards. You have an anti-evidence way of thinking.
Things aren't judged true because no one has shown them false. Things are judged true when evidence is presented that they're true. There is no evidence of the truth of any early Christian claim. This includes all of them. There's no evidence of the Sermon on the Mount, of the feeding of the five thousand, of the apostles, of the last supper, of the crucifixion, of the resurrections, of anything. There's only writers like Josephus and Tacitus passing on reports they've heard, and fastastical but familiarly religious claims in the Christian holy book.
PaulK writes:
So, we have no real evidence that the Aramaic document referred to by Papias has any connection to the Gospel associated with Matthew.
Also Jerome wrote this.
quote:
Matthew, who is also Levi...etc...
Jerome? As in fourth century Jerome more than three centuries after the death of Jesus? Seriously?
Just off the top of my head:
1/ The destruction of the Temple would have confirmed Jesus' forecast of the event. They would clearly want to have included that.
The forecasting of the destruction of the Temple is an obvious post-facto attempt to make it seem like prophecy.
2/ There would be no point to focus as much as they did on His opposition of the Temple culture and authorities as neither still existed after 70AD.
They had to explain his opposition to the Pharisees else his death at their hands (in effect) would make no sense.
3/This was a major catastrophic event and they could hardly have ignored it, even when it supported their message.
It was a catastrophic event for Jews in Jerusalem when it happened. To some guy living in the diaspora some decades later not so much.
Well it does. As John said in Chap 1 "the Word became flesh". Jesus the man embodied God's nature and revealed that nature to the world thus embodying the return of Yahweh. He also fulfilled the messianic role but by preaching and teaching non-violent revolution as opposed to a violent one.
Yes, that's the Christian story, we know. It has as much evidence as the stories of all the other religions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 3:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1377 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2022 3:52 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 1378 by GDR, posted 11-19-2022 5:26 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1379 of 3694 (902257)
11-20-2022 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1225 by GDR
10-31-2022 8:15 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
You are going to believe what you are going to believe but in the context of the whole passage it is clearly about what is going to happen when the revolution comes.
People are going to believe what they're going to believe only when there's no evidence.
Certainly there were other messianic movements during that period however I have never come across any evidence about end times predictions by them or Josephus. Can you give me an example.
That's your yardstick for credibility, prophecies of end times? Do you really believe you can separate the authentic cults from the false by the types of prophecies? In that case science wins because it predicts that in 6 billion years the sun will become a red giant so large that the Earth will be within it's sphere and be burned to crisp, and science has plenty of evidence for this prediction. What evidence do you have for your end times predictions? Something someone purportedly said a couple thousand years ago?
I do agree that many of the early Christians believed that it would happen soon...
Because Jesus prophesied that it would happen soon:
quote:
And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
  —Mark 9:1
quote:
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
  —Mark13:30
quote:
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
  —Matt 10:23
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1225 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 8:15 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1380 by GDR, posted 11-21-2022 2:04 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1387 of 3694 (902439)
11-23-2022 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1227 by GDR
10-31-2022 9:42 PM


Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
You have evidence in the Bible but no evidence it is accurate? What would you say about a researcher who said this:

"All I have for evidence is my data, but there is nothing to indicate my data is accurate. I only believe it is accurate."

How strong a case do you think this researcher has for having discovered something likely true about the real world? He has nothing, right? Well, that's what you have.
Essentially, correct but we can observe that enough people testified about it that the early church was formed in contrast to all of the other messianic movements of the era.
You're providing the same already rebutted answer. When you say "we can observe", who do you think "we" is. It isn't you or anyone you know. "We" cannot be anyone who's been alive in the last 2000 years. What you have is stuff people wrote long ago about supposed events they did not witness and for which there's no evidence anyone witnessed.
Instead of going off and finding some evidence, the best you can seem to do is say stuff along the lines of, "IMHO, I find it credible that there were many witnesses."
Some of the other movements even had some military success but when the Romans executed them their movements always ground to a an immediate halt. This movement didn't end in spite of the humiliating cruel death at Roman hands.
It was Paul's efforts at founding churches in the Jewish diaspora that made Christianity a success, not anything about the stories he made up about his religion's main character.
Percy writes:
Paul created the Christian church by evangelizing about Jesus in the Jewish diaspora. None of those who joined his churches or even wrote about Jesus had even seen or heard him, let alone met him.
Certainly Paul was the greatest evangelist but he was hardly alone.
Without Paul there would be no Christianity.
Also of course Paul was under the tuition of the Apostles prior to going to the Roman/Greek areas, that also did include the Jewish diaspora.
You can "IMHO" believe this, but there's no evidence for it and good evidence against it from Paul himself:
quote:
11I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
  —Galations 1:11-12
Percy writes:
Luke provides a good example right in the beginning of the lack of evidence pervading all of Biblical scholarship. Luke begins by naming Herod, a figure of well established historicity, but then goes on in 1:9 to describe how Zechariah, a priest of the temple, was "chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense." Zechariah was alone. Luke then describes in 1:11 how "an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense." Luke tells us the angel was Gabriel.

There could only have been only a single witness to this event, Zechariah, but he was rendered speechless until the day of his prophesized son's birth. How convenient that he only gets to tell the other husbands of his village of the prophecy after the fact. And how could Luke know about Zechariah's vision, including what appears to be every word Gabriel said. If we presume Luke or his community didn't make the story up out of whole cloth then the story was passed orally down through the decades. Do you see an ounce of real evidence in any part of this?

Luke continues on in the same manner, the next part describing in detail Gabriel's appearance to Mary who, just like Zechariah, was the sole witness.
There is some factual basis in that he clearly describes specifically who the account is about.
If the pronoun "he" refers to Luke, and if the "who the account is about" part refers to Zechariah, then you're not making any sense in seeing a "factual basis." There's nothing in it to assume anything factual at all, including the existence of Zechariah.
Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You see the reference to a specific person, Zechariah, as a "factual basis." But every piece of fiction and non-fiction that includes characters refers to specific people. If you really see a "factual basis" in that passage then you have serious reasoning problems that leave you unable to separate fact from fiction. No wonder you're so often frustrating.
With the amount of detail given I would say that there is a basis for the story, which I agree could have been fabricated by one of the characters. However, I would still contend that Luke was given that account and believed it.
And you think the amount of detail in an account is a "factual basis"? Then I guess "The Hobbit" and all the subsequent books have a factual basis, too.
Even worse for you, the details in the Luke account are impossible for him to have known. He was given the account by someone else, and if Luke believed that the angel Gabriel was being quoted accurately at length then he's kind of gullible. And ask yourself how Zechariah recalled the exact angelic words nine months after he supposedly heard them. You're piling implausibility upon implausibility and following it with, "IMHO, I believe it credible."
The truth or veracity of historical events is established by independent accounts that confirm one another and by archeological artifacts.
Percy writes:
Your entire body is made up of "mindless particles". Obviously consciousness, morality and sentience have no trouble coming from "mindless particles".
There is a difference between using mindless particles to facilitate consciousness as opposed to evolving from mindlessness.
We've been over this. It's just life doing what life does, selecting from imperfectly reproduced life. Mindless evolution can produce change in any aspect of life, including brain function.
GDR writes:
I realize that we can see it working its way through societies but that does nothing to answer the question of whether or not that is happening because of a pre-existing intelligence or not. That too is belief without evidence.
Percy writes:
What is "it" in this paragraph? Whatever "it" is, you are correct that your beliefs are not backed by objective evidence.
The it is empathy or even just consciousness.
There is no objective evidence for your beliefs about the origins of empathy, and it wasn't even much evident as a quality of the celestial in the OT.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1227 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 9:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1390 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 2:30 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1391 of 3694 (902512)
11-24-2022 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1256 by GDR
11-02-2022 5:25 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
We do have the writings of the early church fathers plus Tacitus the Roman historian who wrote this:
If you're not going to address the questions raised about the reliability of Tacitus as a source about Jesus then you shouldn't be citing him.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1256 by GDR, posted 11-02-2022 5:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1398 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 5:41 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1392 of 3694 (902513)
11-24-2022 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1270 by Dredge
11-03-2022 10:46 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Dredge writes:
The article I provided is written in plain English .... even you should be able to understand it.
From the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
The reasons for this rule is these common occurrences:
  1. Citations often don't say what people think they do.
  2. People often don't understand their own citations.
  3. The cited references are sometimes long, leaving it impossible to know which part was being referenced. GDR recently referenced an entire book.
Asking that people express the argument or information in their own words reveals whether any of these issues is a problem.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1270 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 10:46 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1414 of 3694 (902573)
11-25-2022 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1283 by GDR
11-03-2022 6:29 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
About Dr. Richard Carrier:
GDR writes:
As an outspoken atheist Carrier is hardly an impartial source. The wiki page on him says this.
And outspoken evangelicals are impartial sources?
I haven't followed Tangle's argument closely enough to know if he's using this fallacy, but the fallacy in play here is appeal to authority, which is arguments of the sort, "So-and-so-prominent-person agrees with me."
Carrier's approach is to look to the evidence, and that may be why Tangle mentioned him. Carrier's arguments focus on the evidence, or more accurately, the lack thereof that Jesus was a real person rather than an invention of Paul.
I was recently chastised by Percy by referring someone to a book. So that we can share the guilt, I'd suggest reading N T Wright, or John Polkinghorne's "Testing Scripture - A Scientist Explores the Bible"
Bring the arguments into the thread. I've read the latter and found it both obtuse and lacking in even rudimentary scientific rigor.
There were at least a dozen ending with the "Bar Kokhba" revolt in 135AD. Simon bar Kokhba was the last messianic claimant in that era. The point is that revolt, like all of the others ended with the Romans executing the leaders and the movement ending. Jesus is the one exception with the movement actually being invigorated after His execution.
Is the way we know of these other "messiahs", namely through multiple contemporary historical references, the same way we know of Jesus?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1283 by GDR, posted 11-03-2022 6:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1415 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 1:11 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1416 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 1:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1417 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2022 1:31 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1429 by GDR, posted 11-25-2022 5:13 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1440 of 3694 (902672)
11-26-2022 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by GDR
11-04-2022 5:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
The point when I started this thread had more to do with other Christians. I have a bit of a problem who those who read the Bible in a way that I don't believe it was ever intended.
As with all propaganda, people have no trouble reading between the lines, which is definitely not what the propagandists intended.
I have a lot of difficulty with those that can accept that God commits, and even more egregiously commands genocide and public stoning, and yet accepts the call to love our enemies. The two are completely incompatible and IMHO present are errant picture of God and can and has been used to justify war.
But those people aren't making up stories of God-directed genocide, stoning and slavery. They're getting them from your book. You should create a new Bible called The Word According to GDR that gathers all the portions of the Bible you adhere to. It would be less than 10% as long as the actual Bible.
Yet both Faith and myself are Christian even though there is a wide chasm over what we believe about our faith.
You and Faith are both Christians in the way that Liz Cheney and Donald Trump are both Republicans.
But we eventually do hold to a common belief that God does care about us and wants us to care about others. Of course it isn't only Christians that can come to that conclusion.
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by GDR, posted 11-04-2022 5:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1464 by GDR, posted 11-28-2022 5:45 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1441 of 3694 (902690)
11-26-2022 6:49 PM


Your Questions Answered Here!
I have all the answers now.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1442 by Theodoric, posted 11-26-2022 6:51 PM Percy has replied
 Message 1449 by Phat, posted 11-27-2022 8:57 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1443 of 3694 (902694)
11-26-2022 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1290 by Tangle
11-05-2022 4:39 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
It seems that you've abandoned everything in the bible apart from the nice stuff that you prefer to believe.
Yes, it seems that way to me, too, except that if you challenge his belief in Jesus, whose existence is superfluous to all the nice stuff like the Golden Rule and so forth, he digs in.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1290 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2022 4:39 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1444 of 3694 (902695)
11-26-2022 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1442 by Theodoric
11-26-2022 6:51 PM


Re: Your Questions Answered Here!
Thedoric writes:
I would be threatened and probably assaulted if I set that up around here.
No, no, no, that's not so. Christians are all about peace and love. I know, because they had booths, too, and they told me.
By the way, the atheists group told me the only reason they set up a booth was because of all the religious booths set up along the mall.
Many homeless eek out an existence a very short walk away near the Rose Garden. There wasn't a Christian in sight.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1442 by Theodoric, posted 11-26-2022 6:51 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1445 of 3694 (902699)
11-26-2022 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1295 by GDR
11-05-2022 1:30 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I don't know what God can or or can't do, or for that matter, what He can choose to do or not to do.

My belief is that the eternal fire is the one we create for our selves when we descend into a being that is completely self focused and lose our sense of humanity.
Here's what I think you just said.
There's a God, but you don't know what powers he has, and of those powers that he *does* have you don't know which ones he'll choose to use in any given situation.
Those who are selfish and inhumane create an "eternal fire" (whatever that is) for themselves by descending into some other "being" (Satan?).
And while you don't say, I presume that God is the judge of whether someone's selfishness and inhumanity exceeds some threshold, which would mean that God is actually responsible for anyone experiencing "eternal fire".
And you don't doubt the eternal fire, you just don't think it is created by God (even though you claim you don't know what his powers are and so don't really know whether he has the power to create eternal fire) by descending into this other being that you don't name but who I'm guessing is Satan.
Doesn't this all sound like gobbledygook even to you?
Making up a rational and consistent religious theology's a bitch. Don't feel bad, none of the other religions have succeeded, either.
If you read my reply to Ringo you would have seen that I agreed that he was correct and that it isn't a parable but an analysis.
Your answer to Ringo was, "I think you can probably work that out for yourself." That's not an answer. If you have an answer then let's hear it, and if you actually already gave it in a previous message then please provide a link. How the hell am I supposed to know where your answer is? Was it in a subsequent message? A prior message but you feel Ringo ignored the answer? What? We're not mind readers here. You're behaving in ways that make people suspect you're being cryptic and evasive in order to avoid addressing the issues. It's like you're trying to punish the other people in this thread by being as frustrating as possible.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1295 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 1:30 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1446 by Theodoric, posted 11-27-2022 12:01 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1455 of 3694 (902840)
11-27-2022 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1300 by GDR
11-05-2022 2:34 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
OK, nothing I can say will convince you otherwise so I'll turn to wiki, a non-Christian source.
Historicity of Jesus
It would be accurate to say that the article you link to was written by Christian believers but appears at a secular website. It definitely is not as you describe it, a "non-Christian source" endorsing the historicity of Jesus.
When you see phrases like, "Most scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree" that Jesus was a genuine historical figure, most such scholars are believing Christians. If someone were to express this from the opposite perspective they would write something like, "Most non-Christian religious scholars harbor serious doubts about the historical reality of Jesus."
Here's a quote from Christ myth theory:
quote:
In contrast, the mainstream scholarly consensus holds that Jesus was a historical figure who lived in 1st-century Roman Palestine, and that he was baptized and was crucified. Beyond that, mainstream scholars have no consensus about the historicity of the other major details of the gospel stories, or on the extent to which the Pauline epistles and the gospels replaced the historical human Jesus with a religious narrative of a supernatural "Christ of faith".
My position pretty much echos this. It's not impossible that there was a 1st century Jewish preacher named Jesus, but if there was and if he served as the basis for the Pauline epistles and the gospels then he has been exaggerated and distorted out of all recognition.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 2:34 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1456 by Theodoric, posted 11-27-2022 10:00 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1466 of 3694 (902987)
11-29-2022 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1307 by dwise1
11-07-2022 3:34 AM


Re: Camp Lake O' Fire.
dwise1 writes:
Getting into the "Good Place" depends on your overall score in which good actions gain you points and bad actions lose you points. Basically, everybody got the afterlife very wrong (about 5% right) except for this one guy, Doug, who one night was really high on mushrooms and scored 92% correct -- they idolize him in the afterlife and everyone has his picture on the wall.
But there's an episode, probably in the last season, where Eleanor and Michael track down the adult Doug who has become fixated on doing no harm and causing no offense to anyone or anything ever, including insects and the bicycled boy who insults and abuses him. They find that Doug has almost no points. This leads them to further investigation where they find a department in heaven that keeps records of who reached heaven. They discover that no one has gone to heaven in the past 500 years.
The reason turns out to be that modern life has become complicated and presents people with so many moral conflicts that there is never any correct choice, hence almost no one accumulates any points. So in the end they were wrong about Doug getting things right. He was right about the way they thought things worked, but things had stopped working because modern life had gummed up the works.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1307 by dwise1, posted 11-07-2022 3:34 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1468 by dwise1, posted 11-29-2022 1:20 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1467 of 3694 (902988)
11-29-2022 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1308 by GDR
11-07-2022 2:32 PM


Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
GDR writes:
Maybe I should make something of a disclaimer here that you have probably picked up on. Coming out of high school I considered university and rejected the idea as I wanted a career as a pilot and I just didn't see university as an advantage and it would just delay my my purpose which might even be part of my "ultimate purpose". :-) As a result I don't have the ability to express myself with the competence that most of you here have.
This is off-topic, but I think you have a significant misimpression about yourself and about college. First, you express yourself extremely well. It's the thoughts and conclusions we're taking issue with.
Second, and this is just my opinion and it would be interesting to hear what others think, college doesn't improve anyone's ability to express themselves, except maybe English majors. Someone majoring in science and/or engineering will progress little from what they picked up in high school.
As a result though, I often struggle to come up with as coherent an argument as I would like to.
It certainly does make construction of a sentence easier when the thoughts expressed are consistent, rational, and based upon reality. The lack isn't in your skill at expression but in the incoherency of the ideas you're trying to express. Your paragraphs that followed are a perfect example.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1308 by GDR, posted 11-07-2022 2:32 PM GDR has not replied

  
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