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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2094 of 2926 (902485)
11-24-2022 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2093 by AZPaul3
11-24-2022 9:56 AM


AZPaul3:
Before you came in did you let mama know you were home?
Is that all you can come up with? You won't be explaining how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. If you can't do that, tell us how reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals. We want a good science fiction story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2093 by AZPaul3, posted 11-24-2022 9:56 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2095 by AZPaul3, posted 11-24-2022 10:42 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2097 of 2926 (902488)
11-24-2022 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 2095 by AZPaul3
11-24-2022 10:42 AM


Kleinman:
We want a good science fiction story.
AZPaul3:
Read your own catechism.

What's the matter, are tired of telling naive children that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals? Of course, explaining the evolution of drug resistance and explaining why cancer treatments fail, that's reality which you can't explain and everyone knows it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2095 by AZPaul3, posted 11-24-2022 10:42 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2098 of 2926 (902490)
11-24-2022 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 2096 by Tanypteryx
11-24-2022 10:48 AM


Re: Kleinman still soesn't know the difference between asexual and sexual reproduction
Kleinman:
you have increased the number of reads of my papers and citations as well
Tanypteryx:
The reads were us, so those were also rejections. The citation authors will be embarrassed when they find out your papers are bullshit, but I think you are exaggerating.

There must be thousands of you reading my papers and that's just the reads from ResearchGate. That doesn't include those reading directly from the publishers' website or the National Library of Medicine. And don't worry about the authors citing my papers, they got it right, something which you don't get. Why don't you tell us about all your papers chasing bugs which explain how biological evolution works, all zero of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2096 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-24-2022 10:48 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2099 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-24-2022 10:57 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2104 of 2926 (902496)
11-24-2022 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2099 by Tanypteryx
11-24-2022 10:57 AM


Re: Kleinman still soesn't know the difference between asexual and sexual reproduction
Tanypteryx:

Tany posts all zero of his papers chasing bugs. That's quite a list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2099 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-24-2022 10:57 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2105 of 2926 (902497)
11-24-2022 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2100 by ringo
11-24-2022 10:58 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
I have the physics and the math, that's all you need to understand the Kishony and Lenski experiments and descent with modification with and without competition.
ringo:
No. You need to understand the biology first.

Oh, that's right, you need to know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals before you can do the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments. It's the law of biology. And why should anyone know that biological competition is governed by the first law of thermodynamics and that descent with modification is governed by the second law of thermodynamics?
Kleinman:
Here's where he acknowleged that he doesn't know why competition slows evolution in the paper he edited.
ringo:
I don't see where he mentions you in that.

Why should he mention me that he doesn't know why competition slows adaptation? I do know and the reason is the first law of thermodynamics, not some imaginary law of biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2100 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 10:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2109 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:40 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2106 of 2926 (902498)
11-24-2022 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2101 by ringo
11-24-2022 10:59 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
Tany still has to learn the laws of thermodynamics and how to do math. He won't do that chasing bugs.
ringo:
YOU have to learn that Darwin isn't the be-all and end-all of evolution.

He certainly got biological competition and descent with modification right. I'm sure you could do much better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2101 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 10:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2110 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:45 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2107 of 2926 (902500)
11-24-2022 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2102 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:05 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
He can call whomever he wants.
ringo:
Are you physicall incapable of answering a question honestly? You claimed that you "conversed several times with Lenski about his work" and i asked about his reaction. Did he acknowledge verbally that you were right? (It seems pretty clear that he has not acknowledged you in writing.) Or did he say, "Security! Security! There's an escapee from the asylum loose in the building!"?

He hasn't acknowledged one way or the other. But that's the reason, it is the first law of thermodynamics that limits population size. That's the reason.
Kleinman:
If he doesn't want to understand his own experiment, that's his prerogative.
ringo:
So you admit that he still doesn't understand (your drivel about) his own experiment, even after you explained it to him. So, clearly, he does not acknowledge your claims, which is what I've been asking.

There are lots of people that have read this paper.
Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
He doesn't have to acknowledge it to make it true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2102 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2111 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:50 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2108 of 2926 (902502)
11-24-2022 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 2103 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:12 AM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
Kleinman:
dumdum
ringo:
So you are capable of learning. Congratulations.

You are absolutely right, dumb dumb.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2103 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:12 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2112 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:52 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2113 of 2926 (902508)
11-24-2022 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2109 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:40 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
... Oh, that's right, you need to know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals...
ringo:
I have told you at least once that reptiles and birds evolved (past tense) from a common ancestor and that fish and mammals evolved (past tense) from a common ancestor. What do you not understand about that? i will be glad to answer your kindergarten-level questions about evolution.

Since you know so much about biological evolution, could you explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail? And why does 3 drug combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV? That should be easy because you know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals.
Kleinman:
Why should he mention me that he doesn't know why competition slows adaptation?
ringo:
We were talking about him acknowledging you. How could he acknowledge you without mentioning you? (That's mathematics, boy! You can't argue with mathematics!)

You should argue the mathematics when it is done like Taq does it. He makes up a system and then chooses variables so the system works but it doesn't model reality. I do the mathematics of real systems such as the Kishony and Lenski experiments and the math explains why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation. I told him why competition slows adaptation, not that competition slows adaptation, it's the first law of thermodynamics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2109 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2117 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 1:29 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2114 of 2926 (902509)
11-24-2022 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 2110 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:45 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
ringo:
YOU have to learn that Darwin isn't the be-all and end-all of evolution.
Kleinman:
He certainly got biological competition and descent with modification right.
ringo:
It's true that your ideas were already wrong in Darwin's lifetime. But science didn't end in 1882. Instead of flaunting your ignorance, you should move into the twentieth century. And then when you've learned the biology of the twentieth century, we have another twenty-two years worth as icing on the cake.


Yep, we learned about DNA and got some measurements of mutation rates, and then got the Kishony and Lenski experiments where nobody does the math for either, except me. And you know much better than the experts in probability theory that this math is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2110 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2119 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:39 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2115 of 2926 (902510)
11-24-2022 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2111 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:50 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
He hasn't acknowledged one way or the other.
ringo:
So, after much pulling of teeth, we're clear on that.

Don't be silly, I said that I conversed with him. He hasn't acknowledged it yet.
Kleinman:
There are lots of people that have read this paper.
ringo:
There are lots of people who have read The Lord of the Rings too. Not many believed it was true.

That's why more people are reading these papers all the time. They must read it because they don't believe it.
Kleinman:
He doesn't have to acknowledge it to make it true.
ringo:
And he doesn't have to deny it to make it false.

That's possible but not likely because the model works at describing his experiment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2111 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2121 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:43 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2116 of 2926 (902511)
11-24-2022 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2112 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:52 AM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
ringo:
So you are capable of learning. Congratulations.
Kleinman:
You are absolutely right, dumb dumb.
ringo:
And you'll probably learn more by respecting your teachers.


Whoever taught you thermodynamics blew it.
Happy Thanksgiving to you all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2112 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2122 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:44 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2118 of 2926 (902543)
11-25-2022 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2117 by ringo
11-24-2022 1:29 PM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
Since you know so much about biological evolution, could you explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail?
ringo:
That has been explained and you clearly did not understand. It's well beyond your level, which is why I offered to answer kindergarten-level questions for you.

First of all, do you understand the difference between "B and C evolved from A" and "C evolved from B"?

All zero of your explanations and all zero of your links to papers that explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail are the most convincing. And your explanation of "B and C evolved from A" and "C evolved from B" shows your degree of mathematical understanding of biological evolution. Now I know why "D and U evolved from M and B". So, please go on.
Kleinman:
You should argue the mathematics when it is done like Taq does it.
ringo:
You shouldn't try to hide a lie with smoke and mirrors. I demonstrated that Lenski did NOT acknowlege you.

Taq hasn't done the mathematics of the Lenski experiment, he does the mathematics of imaginary populations with an imaginary selection condition and as many variants as he wants that increase in fitness without ever going to fixation (though he calls it fixation). And Lenski hasn't acknowledged my explanation of why biological competition slows adaptation based on the first law of thermodynamics but he has heard it. So, let him continue to not understand why biological competition slows adaptation or let him learn how the first law of thermodynamics affects his and all experiments of descent with modification in a limited carrying capacity environment (as well as all real examples of biological evolution). Of course, if he did understand how the first law of thermodynamics affects his experiment and understood how descent with modification works, he could mathematically model his own experiment, which he hasn't done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2117 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 1:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2123 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:52 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2124 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 10:54 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2126 of 2926 (902562)
11-25-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2119 by ringo
11-25-2022 10:39 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
And you know much better than the experts in probability theory that this math is wrong.
ringo:
The consensus seems to be that YOUR math is wrong - and that's because your biology is wrong. Nobody has a problem with the REAL math.

All you have to do is post a link that shows how antimicrobial resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2119 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2133 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:23 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2127 of 2926 (902563)
11-25-2022 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2120 by Theodoric
11-25-2022 10:42 AM


Re: Kleinman still does not know asexual vs sexual
Theodoric:
Still waiting for any acknowledgment from him that there is a vast difference between asexual reproduction vs sexual. He must be a real hit with the ladies.

Also, he does not understand that a conversation requires two people. Shaking your fist at and barking at the moon is not a conversation.

Lenski's quick and concise response to me shows that he regards Kleinman as an unstable potential personal threat. I have contacted academics about cranks in the past. Rarely do they respond with such vehemence.
So, you are claiming that combination therapy doesn't work for HIV, weeds, and insects? Your speculations about sexual reproduction and asexual reproduction are countered by the facts.
Lenski still hasn't posted the correct mathematical explanation of his own experiment and he still doesn't know why competition slows adaptation. These are public facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2120 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 10:42 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2138 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 12:48 PM Kleinman has replied

  
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