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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7310
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 1141 of 1189 (902463)
11-23-2022 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1139 by Dredge
11-23-2022 6:22 PM


Re: UCD evidence
If you can't provide a scientific paper that supports your claim that Covid vaccines work because of UCD Message 1127, why should I believe you?
I don't give a rat's ass whether you believe or not. UCD is established fact and you cannot challenge it.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1139 by Dredge, posted 11-23-2022 6:22 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7824
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1142 of 1189 (902477)
11-24-2022 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1139 by Dredge
11-23-2022 6:22 PM


Troll
Troll

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1139 by Dredge, posted 11-23-2022 6:22 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2066
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1143 of 1189 (902479)
11-24-2022 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1140 by AZPaul3
11-23-2022 6:44 PM


Re: UCD Is Not The Issue.
Why are you talking about evidence for UCD? I think you must be in the wrong thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1140 by AZPaul3, posted 11-23-2022 6:44 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8773
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 1144 of 1189 (902480)
11-24-2022 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1134 by Dredge
11-23-2022 3:37 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Which treatment of which disease could not have been developed without accepting "the fact of UCD", and why?
You've got this all arse about face. I can throw a ball at a target without needing to "accept" Newton's laws. Never-the-less the laws still apply.
So when medical science uses animal models to test drugs they choose animals that are the likeliest to react to them the same way as humans - which assumes genetic similarity. Without any knowledge of evolution (the UCD is a conclusion drawn from the ToE) it would be logical to choose chimps as models but why would you also choose pigs? Or a fruit fly? The answer is common relatedness.
quote:
According to his (Alfred Nobel's) words, the Nobel Prize of Physiology or Medicine (NPPM) should be attributed to “the person who shall have made the most important discovery within the domain of physiology or medicine.” Until today, 222 scientists awarded the NPPM from 1901 to 2020 [3]. According to the Foundation for Biomedical Research, 186 award researchers (from the 222 total) used animal models in their projects [4]. From the total of NPPM awards, 23 were attributed to scientists and projects directly related to Pharmacology and the use and test of different drugs and chemicals in order to treat diseases, infectious agents, and physical conditions [4].
Animal models are based on the principle of comparative medicine that animals share physiological, pathological, behavioral, or many more other characteristics with humans.
Animal Models in Pharmacology: A Brief History Awarding the Nobel Prizes for Physiology or Medicine - FullText - Pharmacology 2021, Vol. 106, No. 7-8 - Karger Publishers
So without the relatedness of all species, the animal models that all drug researchers use would not work and the relatedness of all species is due to common descent.
Modern medicine depends on UCD simply being a fact. But even if it didn't, even if it had no clue that all life descended from a common ancestor, it would still be fact.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1134 by Dredge, posted 11-23-2022 3:37 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1148 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 2:37 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1149 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 3:46 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 1145 of 1189 (902499)
11-24-2022 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1134 by Dredge
11-23-2022 3:37 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Which treatment of which disease could not have been developed without accepting "the fact of UCD", and why?
Which treatment of which disease has been developed by creationists denying "the fact of UCD", and why?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1134 by Dredge, posted 11-23-2022 3:37 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 1146 of 1189 (902501)
11-24-2022 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1139 by Dredge
11-23-2022 6:22 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
You made the claim, so the onus is on YOU to provide evidence that supports it.
No. YOU made the claim that UCD is not necessary for [blah blah blah]. YOU are the one who has to back up that claim.
UCD is the default position in all science. It is ridiculous to demand that anybody "back it up".

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1139 by Dredge, posted 11-23-2022 6:22 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1147 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 2:23 AM ringo has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2066
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1147 of 1189 (902538)
11-25-2022 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1146 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:33 AM


Re: UCD evidence
ringo writes:
UCD is the default position in all science. It is ridiculous to demand that anybody "back it up".
I'm not demanding that anyone "back up" UCD.
I asked the poster to provide a scientific paper that says Covid vaccines work bcoz of UCD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1146 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:33 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1150 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 10:59 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1152 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 11:22 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2066
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1148 of 1189 (902539)
11-25-2022 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1144 by Tangle
11-24-2022 7:36 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Tangle writes:
So when medical science uses animal models to test drugs they choose animals that are the likeliest to react to them the same way as humans - which assumes genetic similarity. Without any knowledge of evolution (the UCD is a conclusion drawn from the ToE) it would be logical to choose chimps as models but why would you also choose pigs? Or a fruit fly? The answer is common relatedness.
No, the answer is common DNA. Finding model animals with similar DNA to humans doesn't require the theory of UCD.
A scientist who rejects UCD could find model animals with similar DNA to humans just as competently as a scientist who accepts UCD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1144 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2022 7:36 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1151 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 11:00 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1153 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 11:24 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2066
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1149 of 1189 (902541)
11-25-2022 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1144 by Tangle
11-24-2022 7:36 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Tangle writes:
Animal Models in Pharmacology: A Brief History Awarding the Nobel Prizes for Physiology or Medicine - FullText - Pharmacology 2021, Vol. 106, No. 7-8 - Karger Publishers
So without the relatedness of all species, the animal models that all drug researchers use would not work
The article says "Animal models are based on the principle of comparative medicine that animals share physiological, pathological, behavioral, or many more other characteristics with humans".
It doesn't say anything about animal models being based on UCD.
You've got it arse-about-face:
The similarities that exist between humans and model animals don't need the theory of UCD, but the theory of UCD needs the similarities that exist between humans and model animals.
the relatedness of all species is due to common descent.
Medicine doesn't care if "the relatedness of all species is due to common descent" or not. If the fossil record didn't exist and no one had ever thought of UCD, it wouldn't make any difference to medical science.
Modern medicine depends on UCD simply being a fact.
Simply bullshit. Your explanation for why certain animals share physiological, pathological, behavioral, or many more other characteristics with humans is irrelevant and useless to medicine.
Medicine works due to the utilization of facts, and owes nothing to useless Darwinist folklore like the theory of UCD.
But even if it didn't, even if it had no clue that all life descended from a common ancestor, it would still be fact.
UCD no doubt serves as a comforting bedtime story for atheists, but medicine has no use for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1144 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2022 7:36 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1154 by xongsmith, posted 11-25-2022 11:52 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1155 by AZPaul3, posted 11-25-2022 2:07 PM Dredge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7824
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 1150 of 1189 (902554)
11-25-2022 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1147 by Dredge
11-25-2022 2:23 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Why would a scientific paper say such a thing? Why do you think it should? How would this support any position you have?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1147 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 2:23 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7824
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1151 of 1189 (902555)
11-25-2022 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1148 by Dredge
11-25-2022 2:37 AM


Evidence be damned
So Goddidit. Right?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1148 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 2:37 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 1152 of 1189 (902558)
11-25-2022 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1147 by Dredge
11-25-2022 2:23 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
I'm not demanding that anyone "back up" UCD.
Of course you are. You are repeatedly asking for evidence that UCD is necessary.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1147 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 2:23 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 1153 of 1189 (902559)
11-25-2022 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1148 by Dredge
11-25-2022 2:37 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Finding model animals with similar DNA to humans doesn't require the theory of UCD.
So if your DNA and your cousin's DNA are similar, that isn't because you have the same grandfather?
ABE
Dredge writes:
A scientist who rejects UCD could find model animals with similar DNA to humans just as competently as a scientist who accepts UCD.
But they DON't. Science-deniers DON'T make scientific discoveries.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1148 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 2:37 AM Dredge has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2327
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 1154 of 1189 (902561)
11-25-2022 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1149 by Dredge
11-25-2022 3:46 AM


Re: UCD evidence
more Dredgings:
Simply bullshit. Your explanation for why certain animals share physiological, pathological, behavioral, or many more other characteristics with humans is irrelevant and useless to medicine.
I'm glad you see that it explains the Why.
But there are thousands upon thousands of species, and the DNA similarity is a great way to Save Time Looking -
likely several decades of wasted time. Like driving on mapped paved roads versus just driving off into the woods
and over any old river to get to your grandmother's house.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1149 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 3:46 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7310
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1155 of 1189 (902593)
11-25-2022 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1149 by Dredge
11-25-2022 3:46 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Medicine doesn't care if "the relatedness of all species is due to common descent" or not. If the fossil record didn't exist and no one had ever thought of UCD, it wouldn't make any difference to medical science.
And you know this how? Can you cite any papers attesting to this indifference by medicine to the descent of life?
Do you have any reference or logic that even hints at this?
No, no, it's OK. We know you don't. Another one of your lies, Choir Boy.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1149 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 3:46 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1156 by Dredge, posted 11-25-2022 8:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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