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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2026 of 2926 (902391)
11-23-2022 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2015 by ringo
11-22-2022 10:41 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
It is easy to understand this better than them, they have no explanation.
ringo:
Itt's easy to THINK you understand better than them when you have an ego the size of Montana.

I have the physics and the math, that's all you need to understand the Kishony and Lenski experiments and descent with modification with and without competition.
Kleinman:
In fact, Lenski didn't understand why competition slows adaptation until I explained it to him.
ringo:
Show us where he acknowledges that.

Here's where he acknowleged that he doesn't know why competition slows evolution in the paper he edited.
Distribution of fixed beneficial mutations and the rate of adaptation in asexual populations
When large asexual populations adapt, competition between simultaneously segregating mutations slows the rate of adaptation and restricts the set of mutations that eventually fix. This phenomenon of interference arises from competition between mutations of different strengths as well as competition between mutations that arise on different fitness backgrounds. Previous work has explored each of these effects in isolation, but the way they combine to influence the dynamics of adaptation remains largely unknown.
I explained to him just like I explained to you that competition slows descent with modification for all lineages because of the limited energy in the environment. Some lineages use energy but they go extinct but that also limits the most fit lineage from achieving the population necessary for an adaptive mutation to occur. Understand rubberband. Whether he acknowledges this first law of thermodynamics fact, you will have to ask him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2015 by ringo, posted 11-22-2022 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2100 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 10:58 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2027 of 2926 (902392)
11-23-2022 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2017 by ringo
11-22-2022 10:48 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Dredge:
Tany is just being a good Darwinist ...
ringo:
Get out of the nineteenth century.

Tany still has to learn the laws of thermodynamics and how to do math. He won't do that chasing bugs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2017 by ringo, posted 11-22-2022 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2101 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 10:59 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2028 of 2926 (902393)
11-23-2022 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2017 by ringo
11-22-2022 10:48 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
I have conversed several times with Lenski about his work and I have explained to him (and you) why competition slows descent with modification.
ringo:
But did he acknowledge what you said? Or did he call security?

He can call whomever he wants. If he doesn't want to understand his own experiment, that's his prerogative. He just doesn't understand the thermodynamics of his own experiment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2017 by ringo, posted 11-22-2022 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2102 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:05 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2029 of 2926 (902394)
11-23-2022 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 2018 by AZPaul3
11-22-2022 12:04 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
Too bad you can't explain how bacteria evolve resistance to an antibiotic and why cancer treatments fail.
AZPaul3:
We can. You can't.
​
The papers on such things are all over the internet (google scholar). Your inane explanations were shown to be bogus.
​
You're a fraud, Kleinman.

Yeah, right, that's why Desai wrote:
Phenotypic and molecular evolution across 10,000 generations in laboratory budding yeast populations
As human health is increasingly threatened by emerging pathogens, multidrug-resistant infections, and therapy-evading cancer cells, our understanding of the dynamics and predictability of evolution is of growing importance. Yet predicting the course of evolution is difficult, since it is driven by a complex combination of deterministic and stochastic forces. On the one hand, beneficial mutations that establish within a population often rise to fixation at rates nearly perfectly predicted by decades-old theory. On the other hand, random forces such as mutation, genetic drift, and recombination ensure an enduring role for chance and contingency. To understand evolution, we must appreciate the interactions between these deterministic and stochastic components.
Yeah, right, you know how to explain the evolution of antibiotic resistance and why cancer treatments fail. I hope you like it dry, real dry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2018 by AZPaul3, posted 11-22-2022 12:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2033 by AZPaul3, posted 11-23-2022 9:49 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2030 of 2926 (902395)
11-23-2022 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2019 by Theodoric
11-22-2022 4:18 PM


Re: Response from Dr. Lenski.
Theodoric:
He's a crank, and I have no interest in further exchanges with him, either directly or indirectly.
How sad, and just when I thought you were going to explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiment. We'll miss your wisdom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2019 by Theodoric, posted 11-22-2022 4:18 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2035 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2022 10:17 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2031 of 2926 (902396)
11-23-2022 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2020 by Theodoric
11-22-2022 4:45 PM


Re: Response from Dr. Lenski.
Theodoric:
I think this shows that further discussion with the troll is futile. Also, I call on Admins to monitor and address his abusive behavior and persistent lies.
This must be one of your long, long, goodbyes. You really know how to explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments and perhaps you will preside over the sixth extinction of EvC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2020 by Theodoric, posted 11-22-2022 4:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2032 of 2926 (902397)
11-23-2022 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2021 by nwr
11-22-2022 4:56 PM


Re: Response from Dr. Lenski.
Theodoric:
I think this shows that further discussion with the troll is futile.
nwr:
Yes, I pretty much concluded that a while back. I've been resisting any temptation to respond.

What discussion have I gotten from the mathematician that doesn't do the mathematics of biology? Zero. He knows nothing about the physics and mathematics of biological competition, descent with modification, and recombination. But he does know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals because a fossil told him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2021 by nwr, posted 11-22-2022 4:56 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2038 by Taq, posted 11-23-2022 10:34 AM Kleinman has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2033 of 2926 (902398)
11-23-2022 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 2029 by Kleinman
11-23-2022 9:32 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Yeah, right, you know how to explain ...
Yes, we can. You can't.
And none of it negates the fact you are a fraud, Kleinman.
You say you corresponded with Lenski. Bring one of his responses here. Certainly you can manage a short cut-n-paste to this forum.
No, no, don't do that. You already faked one of your supposed sources in this thread. Can't trust you not to fake another.
You are a fraud, Kleinman.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2029 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 9:32 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2034 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 10:11 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2034 of 2926 (902401)
11-23-2022 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 2033 by AZPaul3
11-23-2022 9:49 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
Yeah, right, you know how to explain ...
AZPaul3:
Yes, we can. You can't.

Sure you can, that's why you post all zero of these links that explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. You are the fraud and liar and I hope you like it dry, real dry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2033 by AZPaul3, posted 11-23-2022 9:49 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2037 by Taq, posted 11-23-2022 10:33 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2035 of 2926 (902402)
11-23-2022 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2030 by Kleinman
11-23-2022 9:33 AM


Re: Response from Dr. Lenski.
That is not what I said. That is what Dr. Lenski had to say about you. Seemingly your contacts have been borderline if not outright harassment. How many cease and desist orders have you received?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2030 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 9:33 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2039 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 10:42 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9975
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 2036 of 2926 (902403)
11-23-2022 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 2023 by Kleinman
11-23-2022 9:17 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman writes:
Yeah, your argument makes real sense, only 199,999 retroviral infections to go.
And continuing with the lie. Go figure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2023 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 9:17 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2040 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 10:43 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9975
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 2037 of 2926 (902404)
11-23-2022 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2034 by Kleinman
11-23-2022 10:11 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
Sure you can, that's why you post all zero of these links that explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
You ran away from all of the posts where I cited papers on the evolution of drug resistance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2034 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 10:11 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2043 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 10:48 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9975
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(4)
Message 2038 of 2926 (902405)
11-23-2022 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2032 by Kleinman
11-23-2022 9:36 AM


Re: Response from Dr. Lenski.
Kleinman writes:
What discussion have I gotten from the mathematician that doesn't do the mathematics of biology? Zero. He knows nothing about the physics and mathematics of biological competition, descent with modification, and recombination. But he does know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals because a fossil told him.
So says the person who got the math wrong. You falsely concluded that the fixation rate is the same as the rate of adaptive mutations. Let's not even get into your inane lies about the addition rule. You also can't get simple math right, such as your claim that it takes 1E9 replications to get an adaptive mutation but it only took 1E7 replications in the Lederberg experiment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2032 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 9:36 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2045 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 10:52 AM Taq has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2039 of 2926 (902408)
11-23-2022 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 2035 by Theodoric
11-23-2022 10:17 AM


Re: Response from Dr. Lenski.
Theodoric:
That is not what I said. That is what Dr. Lenski had to say about you. Seemingly your contacts have been borderline if not outright harassment. How many cease and desist orders have you received?
This must be a long, long, long goodbye. No cease and desist disorders and Lenski doesn't understand the thermodynamics of his own experiment. Lenski can say whatever he wants but he doesn't understand why competition slows descent with modification (until I explained it to him).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2035 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2022 10:17 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2041 by Taq, posted 11-23-2022 10:44 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2040 of 2926 (902409)
11-23-2022 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 2036 by Taq
11-23-2022 10:32 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
Yeah, your argument makes real sense, only 199,999 retroviral infections to go.
Taq:
And continuing with the lie. Go figure.

So when is the brilliant virologist going to give us our next Covid. Another harmless viral infection but this one was created by brilliant virologists. You are an idiot that harms people with your stupidity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2036 by Taq, posted 11-23-2022 10:32 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2042 by Taq, posted 11-23-2022 10:45 AM Kleinman has replied

  
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