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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1341 of 3694 (901430)
11-09-2022 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1299 by PaulK
11-05-2022 2:19 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
=PaulK writes:
So you think that the Gospel of the Hebrews is the real Gospel written by Matthew, not the one we call “Matthew”? Because that is what you just said,
Yes, but not to be confused with the NT book of Hebrews. It was simply that the Gospel of Matthew was written primarily for the Hebrews.
GDR writes:
Also the Jewish nation had two particular hopes for the future. One was the return of Yahweh to their nation and the other was that of a messiah who would be a man anointed by God to lead them against Rome. The Gospels story essentially sees Jesus as fulfilling both of those hopes but in a very different way than what the Jews expected.

Jesus used the term "son of man" which combined both hopes.
PaulK writes:
It is not the term at all. It is Christian beliefs added after Jesus’ death.
To a degree I have to agree with that. However, I also contend that Jesus understood it the way I stated. The disciples could not get it through their head that Jesus was going to somehow rid them of the Romans. He didn't have an army but these miracles kept happening so they would have concluded that Yahweh was behind Jesus and so He would come and defeat the enemy the way they envisioned. After the resurrection they started to think more deeply what it was that Jesus taught and we've been doing that for 2000 years.
Interestingly enough even after the resurrection we can see that the disciples still thought that Jesus had returned to eject the Romans from the area as we can see in Acts 1. It took them a while to figure it all out, which they did reflecting on it all.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1299 by PaulK, posted 11-05-2022 2:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1343 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2022 12:27 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1347 of 3694 (901534)
11-10-2022 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1346 by Percy
11-10-2022 2:10 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Hi Percy
I have said several times is all have for evidence is what is written in the Bible, what others have said about what is written in the Bible and my own subjective conclusions about the physical world and our interaction with it.
I have nothing beyond what I have already said about my rationale as to why I believe what I do. I know that's not enough for you or anyone else, but it is all I've got.
So, if you don't want me to keep saying the same thing then don't keep asking the same questions.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1346 by Percy, posted 11-10-2022 2:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1363 by ringo, posted 11-13-2022 1:48 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1492 by Percy, posted 12-02-2022 2:06 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1348 of 3694 (901535)
11-10-2022 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1302 by Tangle
11-05-2022 4:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
Of course you could! You believers just never get it. You could convince me with convincing evidence. I'm really easy to convince, just show me something convincing. We're not doing anything hard here, all we're trying to establish is if the guy in the centre of the story actually existed. It should be really easy, but it isn't because there is no actual historical evidence.

And it wouldn't matter if he had existed, the really hard bit is finding the evidence that the miraculous stuff he's supposed to have done actually happened and isn't just the story telling of the time.
We both know that there is no convincing evidence. It is just like any historical account. All we have is what is written and then we come to our own conclusions about the veracity of the account, by looking at other written material etc.
Tangle writes:
Wiki - the website - is a non-Christian source, it's who posts there that makes it Christian or otherwise. Almost every biblical "scholar" is a Christian and most are not historians, they're theologians. Read some non-Christian stuff, get a full view.
The article was not about Biblical scholars. Here is a quote where it is about "scholars of antiquity".
quote:
Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure
I have read a number of non-Christian authors such as Dawkins, Hitchens, Sagan etc.
AbE Out of curiosity have ever read books by John Polkinghorne or N T Wright?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1302 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2022 4:45 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1350 by Tangle, posted 11-10-2022 6:01 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1494 by Percy, posted 12-02-2022 8:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1349 of 3694 (901536)
11-10-2022 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1304 by Tangle
11-05-2022 5:53 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
I did warn you, but I also gave you the summary, the crux being that the "speech" is a literary construct not an oral one. It's written not spoken.
That is quite likely true, however as I said earlier they did have short hand which could have possibly been used. Also of course it could have been written and kept with Jesus dictating it to Matthew after giving the sermon, or also quite possibly a compilation of more than one sermon.
Tangle writes:
That's the text but it's also out of its time, there are things referred to as history that hadn't yet happened - and it's not a prophecy.
I'm not sure what you are referring to here. One point though I'm sceptical about prophesies of future events. I contend that they are at least usually predictions of a non-supernatural nature and I include Jesus in that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1304 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2022 5:53 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1351 by Tangle, posted 11-10-2022 6:19 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1497 by Percy, posted 12-03-2022 11:09 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1352 of 3694 (901539)
11-10-2022 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1310 by PaulK
11-07-2022 3:19 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
Really? Mark 13
Mark 13 is a prediction of what the Romans will do in response to a military revolution.
There are numerous reasons to know that . Here is Mark 13:14.
quote:
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Now look at Daniel 9:27
quote:
And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
You quoted Mark 13:26.
quote:
26 “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels and gather the elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
No. This is in reference to Daniel 7:13
quote:
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
This is about Jesus coming to Yahweh not coming to Earth. It is by the destruction of the Temple that this heavenly occurrence has transpired. This is a metaphorical picture of the enthronement of Jesus written in Jewish apocalyptical language. It establishes the resurrected Jesus as Lord.
PaulK writes:
Do you really think that the Romans are going to arrange that? Rather than, say, mass executions for the rebellious Jews?
No, it is about how the destruction of the Temple vindicates Jesus' non violent message.
The quote from Daniel is about the desolation of the Temple by the Babylonians. The quote from Mark 13 is referring to the Daniel quote about the predicted destruction of the second Temple. Part of that quote to is the suggestion to head to the hills which of course makes sense if there is a military battle but no sense if it is about the end of the world.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1310 by PaulK, posted 11-07-2022 3:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1355 by PaulK, posted 11-11-2022 12:23 AM GDR has replied
 Message 1501 by Percy, posted 12-03-2022 12:40 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1357 of 3694 (901576)
11-11-2022 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1312 by Tangle
11-07-2022 5:35 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
I suggest you read him and arrive at a conclusion based on what you read, rather than dismiss him as biased on no evidence. Non-Christian professional historians researching the historicity of the bible are as rare as rocking horse droppings. The entire catalogue of biblical commentary has been the preserve of believers almost by definition.
Frankly I don't have time to read his book. There doesn't seem to much on the internet about his specific polemic. Here is a non-Christian NT scholar, who does not believe in God, who rejects Carriers work in general.
Bart Ehrman
Here from Ehrman's blog is what he wrote in response to Carrier's response to his book. Ehrman to Carrier
Tangle writes:
I don't care whether you read about the subject you profess to be interested or not, I'm just pointing out that there is another viewpoint that you are discarding without reason. I did not ignore the wiki article, I've read it and several of the authors in it. Carrier's views are not surprisingly outside the Christian consensus, if they weren't he would be a Christian as is the overwhelming majority of the authors in the wiki. But they're not outside modern, independent analysis.
Well, your hero Richard Dawkins doesn't agree with you or Carriere either.
Ricahrd Dawkins on historicity of Jesus
Tangle writes:
The fact is, you have no facts. That's a problem because you should be able to show beyond debate that this guys actually existed, but you can't because convincing external evidence is totally absent. This was an important religious and political figure, but no contemporary historian wrote about him and no Roman records record him. Funny that.
Firstly He was hardly important to the Romans. They crucified many thousands. Do we have a record of any other individual crucified by the Romans of that era, even as much as what we see in Tacitus. The Jewish authorities simply had Him executed and got Him out of the way as He was stirring up opposition to the Temple authorities, and would not have been the least bit interested in recording anything about Him.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1312 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2022 5:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1359 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2022 2:31 AM GDR has replied
 Message 1502 by Percy, posted 12-03-2022 12:53 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1358 of 3694 (901580)
11-11-2022 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1314 by Tangle
11-08-2022 2:27 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
I'm an atheist remember, I don't believe a word of this stuff! I'm just reporting what the vast majority of Christians believe and what all the churches I've ever been in preach. You know, all that “Jesus saves”, heaven and hell, fire and brimstone stuff?
Just wondering how you know that the vast majority of Christians believe that way. Incidentally one of the leading, if not the leading New Testament scholars in the world is N T Wright. I know that you're not a fan but my beliefs are pretty much in line with his.
Tangle writes:
It certainly seems so for every Christian and church but you and yours!
That simply isn't true, and it isn't even true within any given church.
GDR writes:
but IMHO that is not at all the main point of Christianity. Christianity is a calling on our lives to live lives based on love of the other, or the Golden Rule works fine.
Tangle writes:
That's a rule not restricted to Christianity of course. In fact it's universal.
I've made that point myself several times as an argument favouring of theism.
Tangle writes:
So why waste all that time and effort praying and grovelling?
I don't see grovelling as being a fair assessment, but worship and prayer is to God, but not for God. It is for us. Worship and prayer should give us hearts that our humble and thankful and then hopefully change our hearts to something more inclined to unselfish love.
Tangle writes:
That's what you got from the world! The world you live in is predominantly Christian. They built that world. Nothing changed except you got older.
Actually the world I live in is predominately secular. Also, things have changed. The church is very different than the one we grew up in. Customs have changed and there is more thought given to what is being taught. Christian scholarship has evolved enormously in the last 50 years. For one thing there is a lot more attention being paid to the 1st century world that Jesus lived in, and a lot more attention being paid to what is in the Scriptures because of a much more critical reading of them. People like Hitchens have been a huge help because it has caused people to consider more deeply about just what they believe. As a result, IMHO, the church is in the throes of another reformation which in many ways will be as pronounced as the one 500 years ago.
Tangle writes:
You've no idea what you'd be doing if you hadn't been 'born again'. I volunteer for all sorts of charitable stuff now that the modern pressures of establishing a career and bringing up a family are largely behind me.
Again IMHO I would say that at some point you have been "born again". You have moved away from a self absorbed life to one that is now more about serving others. Being "born again" is not about all of a sudden believing some doctrine or another, (although I agree that many Christians still think that way), but about having a heart that moved from one that is always looking out for number one, to having a heart that is looking out for others.
Tangle writes:
Yes, but like those before you, you're making it all up to suit what you want to be true. It's non-biblical and non-taught isn't it?
Anybody can make the Bible say just about anything they want by taking some passage and going with it. As the OT stories of genocide show we can use God as an excuse for just about anything we want.
Again, IMHO, we should read the Bible as an ongoing narrative climaxing in Jesus as a Jewish story that tells of their progressive understanding of the nature of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1314 by Tangle, posted 11-08-2022 2:27 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1360 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2022 3:45 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1503 by Percy, posted 12-04-2022 8:51 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1372 of 3694 (902203)
11-18-2022 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1368 by Percy
11-15-2022 7:29 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Sorry to have not been replying. I got a bad case of the flu and haven't been at my computer for close to a week. As a result I gonna start answer emails starting with these last one from Percy. I'm still getting over whatever bug I had and don't have the energy to answer all of them. If anyone wants to go back and repeat somthing you brought up before feel free. I did read all of your other posts off line on my email account with my phone.
Percy writes:
No, I never agreed the Bible is evidence of anything you're seeking evidence for. Just for one example, you argued that the many witnesses of the resurrected Jesus constituted evidence that he was real, and I pointed out that wasn't true. It was just stories claiming there were many witnesses. See Message 939.

Over and over again people here have shown how your claims of evidence are mistaken. No one, especially me, ever agreed the Bible is evidence.
Sorry, if I misunderstood but I believed that you agreed the the Bible was evidence but very weak.
I think that we can agree that these books and letters were written in the 1st century buy various authors. I think that the options in regards to them are as follow:
1/They are a complete fabrication with some particular agenda.
2/They are based on a man Jesus and then built a legendary account of resurrection around Him.
3/They got the stories from others and the legends grew around their oral tradition.
4/They wrote of their own accounts of what happened from what either they witnesses or from someone who was an eyewitness.
I don't see how it is possible to read the NT without at least written to be believed regardless of which of the 4 options you want to choose. As evidence of that is the fact that many people of the era did believe they were true and and none of the authors corrected them.
From there you can look for anything that confirms or negates one view or another but I don't see now you can say it isn't evidence. You can say that it is extremely weak evidence and go with any of the 1st 3 options. However one who has responded here has an opinion on it in which case you and others have examined the evidence of what was written and rejected it.
Percy writes:
To claim that both health and plague (for example) are evidence of God is a problem for you, not for Christians in general. The traditional Christian answer is that the place human suffering has in God's plan is a mystery (though possible answers are often mentioned). Your answer is that plague is evidence of God because it represents (you irrationally argue) a choice.
I don't believe that I have ever claimed the plague and things like plague and cancer are evidence for God. I agree actually that it is evidence against God as I believe in him.
Percy writes:
You said you could use the bad as evidence for God as easily as the good, but all you've done so far is demonstrate your inability to do this.
My only point on this is that if you can't choose evil then you can't choose good either and we are robots.
Percy writes:
Concerning an intelligence outside of space and time, you have no evidence, not a whit. Your argument, "But altruism," is answered by the large amount of research done on the evolutionary origins of altruism. Saying "I don't accept that" is a position statement, not an argument, not evidence, and not rational to think it is.
Can you tell me specifically of what the evidence is for the evolutionary origins of altruism? I'm not talking about how you might see that it has grown over time, and maybe even why it evolved, but it origins are something else. It does not deal with abiogenesis had an intelligent or mindless origin. It is a belief.
Percy writes:
our "why" is asking for supernatural answers, and there's no evidence for the supernatural. Why did the bridge collapse when it did with the accompanying innocent deaths? You look to God for your "why". But there is no sign of the supernatural when the bridge is examined, only corroded bolts or cables and such.
This is a complete misrepresentation of my beliefs. If a bridge comes down I certainly don't even for the briefest of moments look for anything but natural causes such as corroded bolts or cables. I do see God in the people who respond, sometimes risking themselves to help the injured and to a lessor degree to this who work diligently to determine the cause so that it won't happen again. This is particularly true for the aviation industry.
Percy writes:
God as a meme. I think you've got it.
GDR writes:
I think we have a very different idea of what the means.
Percy writes:
Yes? And what do you think it means?
Dawkins writes of memes as social replicators. We all have numerous memes in our lives from the things are parents taught us, what we observed in others, from what we have read. It is my unevidenced belief that there is also a God meme that calls us to love others sometimes even at the expense of the self which like all the other memes we can choose or ignore.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1368 by Percy, posted 11-15-2022 7:29 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1375 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2022 2:25 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1395 by Stile, posted 11-24-2022 2:20 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1516 by Percy, posted 12-05-2022 8:53 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1374 of 3694 (902224)
11-19-2022 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1373 by Percy
11-19-2022 11:57 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
Good to know, but I'll say it once more. I do not agree that the Bible is evidence for anything supernatural.
OK. We just will agree to disagree.
Percy writes:
Not sure where the confusion lies here. Of course you're seeking evidence that would show that what you believe is objective reality. For example, you presented what you believe is evidence that Jesus was a real person.
The NT writers wrote about things, some from personal experience, of the objective reality of the life of Jesus and His resurrection. This of course is based on the assumption that what they wrote about was historically true. Now all these years later we can subjectively conclude whether or not we believe what was written.
It can never be an objective belief for me as I obviously can't witness, or see repeated something that happened 2000 years ago. Nor, for the same reason, can there even be objective evidence for the same reason. This is true of any historical event. It all comes down to how strongly we view what we have recorded in whatever sources are available.
GDR writes:
They are obviously written to be believed as can be attested to by the fact that many at the time and still now do believe the accounts to be accurate to one degree or another.
Percy writes:
I guess you've forgotten you said this already and it was rebutted already. The intent of the author is not a measure of fidelity to reality, nor is the number of people who believe his accounts. If this were so then many contradictory spiritual beliefs would have to be simultaneously true.
You missed my point. I was not arguing for any measure of fidelity to accuracy, (there is a convoluted way of saying accuracy ) but simply to the idea that they were written to be believed regardless of their accuracy.
Incidentally, I haven't mentioned him before but all the reading I have done has led me to conclusions that are pretty much bang on with Brian McLaren. Here is a short review of a book that he wrote recently that give a bit of an outline as to what his thoughts are and pretty much those of my own.
Do I stay Christian. The review starts off with the heading 10 Solid reasons to abandon Christianity.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by Percy, posted 11-19-2022 11:57 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1528 by Percy, posted 12-06-2022 11:28 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1378 of 3694 (902235)
11-19-2022 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1376 by Percy
11-19-2022 3:36 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
You have things backwards. You have an anti-evidence way of thinking.

Things aren't judged true because no one has shown them false. Things are judged true when evidence is presented that they're true. There is no evidence of the truth of any early Christian claim. This includes all of them. There's no evidence of the Sermon on the Mount, of the feeding of the five thousand, of the apostles, of the last supper, of the crucifixion, of the resurrections, of anything. There's only writers like Josephus and Tacitus passing on reports they've heard, and fastastical but familiarly religious claims in the Christian holy book.
But if there is no evidence we can't automatically claim that any particular view point is correct or not. We will believe what we will believe when it comes to ancient accounts.
Percy writes:
The forecasting of the destruction of the Temple is an obvious post-facto attempt to make it seem like prophecy.
That hardly makes sense. If it was written after the war then any deception in that area would be obvious to those at the time. I'd be hesitant to call it a prophesy anyway. It was a prediction of what would happen with the direction the Jews of the area were taking.
Percy writes:
They had to explain his opposition to the Pharisees else his death at their hands (in effect) would make no sense.
Firstly read PaulK as he got it right. The primary argument was against the Temple authorities and as the Temple was gone so where those authorities. There was no no one left that it would have to be explained to.
Percy writes:
It was a catastrophic event for Jews in Jerusalem when it happened. To some guy living in the diaspora some decades later not so much.
At the time the destruction of the Temple was huge for Jews everywhere. Sure, over time Jews everywhere adjusted the new reality.
Percy writes:
Yes, that's the Christian story, we know. It has as much evidence as the stories of all the other religions.
There is the fact that there are multiple authors in The bible as oppose to other holy books, but ultimately it does come down to belief. I think also that a lot of what we believe boils down to haw we perceive the world that we live in.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1376 by Percy, posted 11-19-2022 3:36 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1554 by Percy, posted 12-11-2022 10:27 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1380 of 3694 (902309)
11-21-2022 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1379 by Percy
11-20-2022 4:46 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
You are going to believe what you are going to believe but in the context of the whole passage it is clearly about what is going to happen when the revolution comes.
Percy writes:
People are going to believe what they're going to believe only when there's no evidence.
I gave you evidence such as why would He tell them to head for the hills if it is about the end of the world. I gave you the reference about stars falling etc to the OT that is being used to make the point that this is about the Roman occupation as it had been to the Babylonians.
Also not that it will matter to you but this is consistent with what N T Wright who is arguably the foremost New Testament scholar in the world and certainly the
best known.
You though are blindly going to carry on by holding to the views of American fundamentalists.
GDR writes:
Certainly there were other messianic movements during that period however I have never come across any evidence about end times predictions by them or Josephus. Can you give me an example.
Percy writes:
That's your yardstick for credibility, prophecies of end times? Do you really believe you can separate the authentic cults from the false by the types of prophecies? In that case science wins because it predicts that in 6 billion years the sun will become a red giant so large that the Earth will be within it's sphere and be burned to crisp, and science has plenty of evidence for this prediction. What evidence do you have for your end times predictions? Something someone purportedly said a couple thousand years ago?
It is incredible the way you twist what I say. Firstly, as I have said numerous times, Jesus was not supernaturally predicting or prophesizing anything. He was considering the situation in His world and culture and telling them what will happen as a result of a violent revolution.
The point of what I was saying is that a messiah was about the overthrow of the Romans in that age, not end times, and as evidence I pointed out that there is no record of any messianic wannabe talking about end times for the world.
Percy writes:
Because Jesus prophesied that it would happen soon:

quote:
And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
—Mark 9:1
quote:
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
—Mark13:30
quote:
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
—Matt 10:23
Once again, He was predicting, not prophesying, the result of the revolution.
The quote from Mark is about the Kingdom of God being established in this world as from Daniel 7. It is as in the Lord's Prayer. "Your Kingdom Come as in Heaven With You.
And your quote from Matthew is about the "Son of Man" coming to the "Ancient of Days" in Daniel 7. The destruction of the Temple will signify the end of the Temple age and now the Temple movement will see the Temple in Jesus and will exist in the hearts that love and serve Jesus' message of love, mercy, justice and peace.
If you are interested here is something short by N T Wright. Farewell to Rapture

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1379 by Percy, posted 11-20-2022 4:46 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1381 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2022 2:39 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1382 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2022 3:50 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1556 by Percy, posted 12-11-2022 1:44 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1383 of 3694 (902372)
11-22-2022 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1381 by PaulK
11-21-2022 2:39 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
Because there is no reason to run away if a gentile army is going to storm Jerusalem, murdering and raping the inhabitants? Jewish end-times prophecies do not fit with your ideas about “the end of the world”. As I’ve pointed out to you more than once.
Firstly, I wish you would tell me what my views of the end of the world are. It is my view that the end of humanity, at any rate, will be by a nuclear war, by our invention of a virus that can't be stopped or some other clever thing we will come up with. And I don't know the hour or the day either. As for theories about the end of the physical world is concerned I'm quite happy to leave that to science.
Let's use the Matthew 24 account of what Jesus said. Here is the passage.
quote:
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.
18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
The first verse refers back to Daniel 9 and is about the destruction caused by war. Then he tells them to get out of town and quickly before there is no escape.
He adds that it will be particularly hard for young mothers and hopefully it won't take place in winter.
This is obviously about a war and not end times.
As for Luke maybe we can cut him a little slack as he says when the army is surrounding Jerusalem and they should head for the hills, he does say that is for those who are in Judea which is a lot more than just Jerusalem.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1381 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2022 2:39 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1384 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2022 5:04 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1385 of 3694 (902430)
11-23-2022 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1384 by PaulK
11-22-2022 5:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
Which proves that you are still wilfully ignoring Jewish ideas about the end times. Which are full of war. As you certainly ought to know by now.
I'm curious about what you think the Jewish ideas of end times were. I could be wrong but I don't think that they had a particular belief about end times as we think of them. They did have different ideas about a life after death.
Also, they talked about the end of the age but that was simply about the end of the Roman age or era.
PaulK writes:
So it is only too late for the people who most need to run. That’s helpful.
I think you are kinda looking at this a bit too much in isolation. He did give a number of ways that they can see that this is coming so they will have plenty of warning.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1384 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2022 5:04 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1386 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2022 12:09 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1388 of 3694 (902464)
11-23-2022 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1386 by PaulK
11-23-2022 12:09 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
I think that the Zechariah quote was sufficient.
The Jews are attacked - and suffer - God intervenes to save them, and gives the Jews a preeminent place in the world. It’s the suffering of the first part that people would be running away from.

Often you’d get the restoration of the Davidic line and the return of the Lost Tribes, too.
Yes I agree. The Jews had hoped that Yahweh would return, possibly with the use of a messianic figure who would be anointed by Yahweh and lead them against their enemies, whoever they might be.
PaulK writes:
But that would not be in the Tanakh - even though Daniel has references to Roman intervention in the wars, Rome wasn’t seen as a threat. And off hand I don’t think any of the other books of the Tanakh mention Rome at all - most are too early anyway.
Certainly. It could also have applied to whatever age or era you want to mention. It could be the Babylonian, Assyrian or even the Hasmonean eras. In this case it was the Romans.
PaulK writes:
The instruction to run to the hills is explicitly linked to the armies surrounding Jerusalem, which is both obvious and late. If the Romans had installed pagan worship in the Temple - as Matthew and Mark say - that would have been a trigger for revolt, but one that would give time to flee. Of course that didn’t happen, hence the change.
I'm not clear on your point. What change are you referring to? The Romans surrounded Jerusalem as a result of the revolution.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1386 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2022 12:09 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1389 by PaulK, posted 11-24-2022 12:22 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1390 of 3694 (902478)
11-24-2022 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1387 by Percy
11-23-2022 12:34 PM


Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
Percy writes:
You're providing the same already rebutted answer. When you say "we can observe", who do you think "we" is. It isn't you or anyone you know. "We" cannot be anyone who's been alive in the last 2000 years. What you have is stuff people wrote long ago about supposed events they did not witness and for which there's no evidence anyone witnessed.

Instead of going off and finding some evidence, the best you can seem to do is say stuff along the lines of, "IMHO, I find it credible that there were many witnesses."
Firstly it is only your view that none of the NT was written by eye witnesses. As I have said earlier Richard Bauckham wrote a large 700 page book on the subject and doesn't agree that eye witnesses were involved in writing the Gospels. It of course is not proof but it is someone who as an historian has spent considerable time and energy on the subject and disagrees with you.
Also, and again, I wasn't offering the fact that many people believed what was in the Gospels as evidence of their accuracy but only as evidence that they were written to be believed.
Percy writes:
It was Paul's efforts at founding churches in the Jewish diaspora that made Christianity a success, not anything about the stories he made up about his religion's main character.
That is conjecture to fit your belief. We only know what happened with Paul. We don't know what would have happened without him.
Percy writes:
Without Paul there would be no Christianity.
C'mon, you make these bold assertions. There were numerous places that Paul never made it to where Christian communities formed.
Percy writes:
You can "IMHO" believe this, but there's no evidence for it and good evidence against it from Paul himself:
Sure, he is talking about his road to Damascus experience but he also spent considerable time with the apostles in Judea.
Percy writes:
If the pronoun "he" refers to Luke, and if the "who the account is about" part refers to Zechariah, then you're not making any sense in seeing a "factual basis." There's nothing in it to assume anything factual at all, including the existence of Zechariah.
And you think the amount of detail in an account is a "factual basis"? Then I guess "The Hobbit" and all the subsequent books have a factual basis, too.

Even worse for you, the details in the Luke account are impossible for him to have known. He was given the account by someone else, and if Luke believed that the angel Gabriel was being quoted accurately at length then he's kind of gullible. And ask yourself how Zechariah recalled the exact angelic words nine months after he supposedly heard them. You're piling implausibility upon implausibility and following it with, "IMHO, I believe it credible."

The truth or veracity of historical events is established by independent accounts that confirm one another and by archeological artifacts.
You keep insisting that I understand the Bible in the way you seem to want to insist that I do. I did merely say that I believe that this story was given to Luke from some source but that does not make it factual. In my view it has a very legendary feel to it and is very likely the case that it is a legend that grew up around the birth of Jesus and John.
Percy writes:
There is no objective evidence for your beliefs about the origins of empathy, and it wasn't even much evident as a quality of the celestial in the OT
There is no objective evidence for your beliefs about the origins of empathy either. There is only the fact that we can be observed, although very unevenly, in cultures around the world. Actually, in the OT there are many instances where Yahweh promotes empathy. However, I agree that there are many cases where the writers have Yahweh commanding the polar opposite of that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1387 by Percy, posted 11-23-2022 12:34 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1393 by Theodoric, posted 11-24-2022 1:19 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1562 by Percy, posted 12-12-2022 3:27 PM GDR has replied

  
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