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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
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(2)
Message 1075 of 1429 (901247)
11-07-2022 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1042 by Dredge
11-05-2022 12:56 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
If no one believed evolution created those genetic similarities between species, would those genetic similarities still exist?
If life didn't evolve there is no reason why we would expect to observe a nested hierarchy. We do observe a nested hierarchy, and this is what evidences evolution.

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 Message 1042 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 12:56 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1077 of 1429 (901249)
11-07-2022 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1067 by Dredge
11-06-2022 5:59 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Did you notice the pattern of SPECULATION evident in those quotes?
Yes. It's called research. They are using common ancestry to come up with new hypotheses in biomedical research. That is a practical use.
Where is the description of a practical application of UCD? I couldn't find one ... all I found was lots of useless Darwinist THEORIZING about what might have happened millions of years ago and lots of useless SPECULATION.
That's what science is, theorizing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1067 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2022 5:59 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1083 by Dredge, posted 11-09-2022 1:14 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1092 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2022 1:18 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 1078 of 1429 (901250)
11-07-2022 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1058 by Dredge
11-05-2022 7:46 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
... until you get to the level of Phyla, at which point you realise that nested hierarchies exist only within Phyla. The different Phyla themselves don't collectively form a nest hierarchy, thus disproving the theory of UCD.
So you accept common ancestry within phyla?
Oh, by the way, entire phyla and kingdoms are rooted by phylogenies of shared genes.
Root of the universal tree of life based on ancient aminoacyl-tRNA synthetase gene duplications - PubMed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1058 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 7:46 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1081 of 1429 (901254)
11-07-2022 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1060 by Dredge
11-06-2022 11:35 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Darwinist assume UCD is a fact, therefore the entire history of life on earth forms one huge nested hierarchy.
You can't even stay consistent. The nested hierarchy is a fact, just like genetic similarities. The nested hierarchy is there whether anyone accepts UCD or not.
Also, scientists concluded that all life shares a common ancestor because of the universal nested hierarchy. The observed fact led to the conclusion. Before this point, UCD was still a big question. It could have been that life had multiple origins, but that is not where the evidence led. In fact, Darwin himself did not assume UCD.
quote:
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
--Charles Darwin, "On the Origin of Species"
All you are doing is beating up on strawmen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1060 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2022 11:35 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 1084 of 1429 (901410)
11-09-2022 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1083 by Dredge
11-09-2022 1:14 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
So you consider mere speculation about a hypothesis that has produced zero practical benefits be a "practical use" of UCD.
No. I never said any such thing.
Perhaps you could address what I actually said?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1083 by Dredge, posted 11-09-2022 1:14 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1085 by Dredge, posted 11-09-2022 1:40 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1086 of 1429 (901418)
11-09-2022 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1085 by Dredge
11-09-2022 1:40 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
In effect, it is what you said.
No, it isn't. You can keep swinging away at your strawmen, or you can actually address what people are saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1085 by Dredge, posted 11-09-2022 1:40 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1088 by AZPaul3, posted 11-09-2022 5:28 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(7)
Message 1093 of 1429 (901899)
11-15-2022 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1092 by Dredge
11-15-2022 1:18 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Wrong, Einstein. That is a theorectical use. It becomes a practical use when it results in an improvement in the treatment of a disease.
Guiding research is a very practical use, whether you like it or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1092 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2022 1:18 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1094 by Stile, posted 11-15-2022 2:07 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 1100 by Dredge, posted 11-17-2022 4:47 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1096 of 1429 (901906)
11-15-2022 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1095 by Dredge
11-15-2022 2:31 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
More bs.
The blind leading the blind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1095 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2022 2:31 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1101 of 1429 (902110)
11-17-2022 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1100 by Dredge
11-17-2022 4:47 PM


Re: UCD evidence
You're digressing. The discussion is not about theorectical approaches to research ... it's about tangible benefits in the treatment of disease.
Tangible benefits come from research which is guided by UCD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1100 by Dredge, posted 11-17-2022 4:47 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1102 by Dredge, posted 11-17-2022 4:53 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1103 of 1429 (902112)
11-17-2022 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1102 by Dredge
11-17-2022 4:53 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Which tangible improvement in the treatment of which disease has resulted from research guided by UCD?
Tons and tons of diseases. Anything that uses an animal model.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1102 by Dredge, posted 11-17-2022 4:53 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1104 by Dredge, posted 11-17-2022 5:38 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 1105 of 1429 (902115)
11-17-2022 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1104 by Dredge
11-17-2022 5:38 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Using animal models doesn't require accepting the theory of UCD.
Animals models are used because of UCD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1104 by Dredge, posted 11-17-2022 5:38 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1108 by Dredge, posted 11-18-2022 4:04 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1221 by Dredge, posted 12-07-2022 12:05 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1109 of 1429 (902183)
11-18-2022 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1108 by Dredge
11-18-2022 4:04 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
That is incorrect ... animal models are used bcoz they're genetically and physiologically similar to humans.
That's because of UCD.
The history of how they came to genetically and physiologically similar to humans is irrelevant to their utility.
It isn't irrelevant.
quote:
. Darwin’s description of “descent with modification” points to two aspects of evolution that can help us assess the matching between a prospective model species and its intended target. One is trees that represent the structure of phylogenetic relationships; the other is phenotypic traits, i.e. the unique characteristics of each species’ evolved biology and natural history. Mapping traits onto a phylogeny is the first step toward analyzing the source of similarities between a target and a potential model. Whether similar traits arise from shared ancestry or from adaptive convergence has important implications for what kinds of inferences can be justified, and for the likely translatability of findings.
Evolution offers both a rich source of possible models, and guidance for choosing the best ones for a given purpose. Considering model choice from an evolutionary angle not only helps to answer the question “What species might be a good model for studying x?” but also suggests additional questions we should be asking to assess the utility of both potential and current models. Recognizing the diverse ways model organisms can function expands our search image as we seek species to study that can both extend general knowledge, and generate translatable insights relevant to human neurobiology and disease.
Selection of Models: Evolution and the Choice of Species for Translational Research - FullText - Brain, Behavior and Evolution 2019, Vol. 93, No. 2-3 - Karger Publishers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by Dredge, posted 11-18-2022 4:04 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1193 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2022 9:51 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1123 of 1429 (902357)
11-22-2022 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1113 by Dredge
11-19-2022 12:51 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Why do you need to believe that all life shares a common ancestor to examine and compare the DNA of humans and other animals?
A perfect example of why creationism is a science stopper. All Dredge thinks one should do is just measure stuff. Explain it? OH NOOOOO, CAN'T DO THAT!!! Apply the scientific method? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1113 by Dredge, posted 11-19-2022 12:51 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1224 by Dredge, posted 12-07-2022 12:44 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1132 of 1429 (902429)
11-23-2022 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1125 by Dredge
11-22-2022 3:59 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Are you saying that, if I get a Covid jab, it won't work bcoz I don't accept "the fact of UCD"?
NASA is able to get satellites to orbit the Earth even though there are Flat Earthers. You can continue to deny basic findings in science, but that doesn't change the reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1125 by Dredge, posted 11-22-2022 3:59 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 1184 of 1429 (902997)
11-29-2022 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1171 by Dredge
11-28-2022 2:19 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Oh, I get what you mean ... if scientists don't accept that RNA-DNA is the result of Universal Common Descent, RNA-DNA will change or perhaps cease to exist and the vaccines won't work.
Scientists do accept UCD, and that helps guide their research into vaccines, virology, and immunology. Your refusal to accept these facts does not make them go away.
So in order for the vaccine's "RNA-DNA mechanism" to work, scientists must first accept UCD.
The development of the vaccines required a lot of animal models and understanding of innate and adaptive immunity. Innate immunity was especially important, and our current knowledge is based on phylogenetic analyses of eukaryotes. For example, our understanding of toll-like receptors (TLRs) is based on phylogenetics. These receptors were first discovered in fruit flies, and through common descent we were able to determine how they worked in humans and other mammals. TLR7, specifically, is especially important for understanding the current mRNA vaccines:
quote:
RNA sensors such as Toll-like receptor 7 (TLR7) and MDA5 are triggered by the mRNA vaccines, and TLR9 is the major double-stranded DNA sensor for the AdV vaccine. The resultant activated DCs present antigen and co-stimulatory molecules to S protein-specific naive T cells, which become activated and differentiated into effector cells to form cytotoxic T lymphocytes or helper T cells. T follicular helper (TFH) cells help S protein-specific B cells to differentiate into antibody-secreting plasma cells and promote the production of high affinity anti-S protein antibodies.
COVID-19 vaccines: modes of immune activation and future challenges | Nature Reviews Immunology

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1171 by Dredge, posted 11-28-2022 2:19 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1185 by Dredge, posted 12-01-2022 4:42 AM Taq has replied

  
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