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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 299 of 331 (902215)
11-19-2022 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Phat
11-19-2022 12:08 PM


Re: Two Sides To Every Argument
Phat writes:
ringo has emphasized this point repeatedly, though I think his standards for what a Christian *should be* are far too strict.
Jesus' standards, not mine.
quote:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Phat writes:
In comparing today's modern "Christians" with the widow with two mites, the early believers, and certain Christian communities isolated from the rest of society, the modern believer simply does not stand up.
So you change the standards to suit he {desired) behavior.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 12:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 311 of 331 (902267)
11-21-2022 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Phat
11-19-2022 12:33 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
I was referring to the sheep and goats judgement.
The answer remains the same: a good father wouldn't do that. The "father" analogy breaks down.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 12:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 312 of 331 (902275)
11-21-2022 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Phat
11-19-2022 3:20 PM


Re: If you say so
Phat writes:
The peanut gallery has done exactly what I predicted it would do. It has conflated Republican/Conservative ideals with evangelical Christianity.
Using you as an example, the conflation works.
Phat writes:
And vilified both.
And rightly so. Note how Jesus vilified the Pharisees for the same behavior as yours.
First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.
And yet you can never tell us what that "absolute" morality is. You're afraid to discuss it.
Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.
Like the customs of racism and sexism. Conservatives keep the same polices year after year, century after century, without regard to whether they work or not.
Conservatives sense that modern people are dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, able to see farther than their ancestors only because of the great stature of those who have preceded us in time.
They have contempt for people.
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.
So Trump is no conservative.
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.
Different shades of white?
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.
They would do better to think in terms of improvability.
Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.
THEIR freedom and THEIR property, nobody else's.
Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.
Community is not voluntary. It's a contract. It's binding.
Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.
So again, Trump is no conservative. He wants to be dictator for life.
Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.
Oxymoron and boldfaced lie. Conservative want to be stuck in the ninteenth century forever.
quote:
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. -- John Stuart Mill
Phat writes:
I could dig deeper and find a general consensus for what Conservatives purport to believe.
I'd like it if you would DISCUSS what you've already said. No need to Gish-gallop all over the Internet trying to find something good about conservatives.
Phat writes:
Why are they evil?
See above.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 3:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Phat, posted 11-21-2022 3:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 314 of 331 (902279)
11-21-2022 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
11-19-2022 3:27 PM


Re: A word about social programs
Phat writes:
Nonsense.
How so?
Phat writes:
Why the peanut gallery chooses to vilify conservatism is way beyond me.
Because you refuse to think.
Phat writes:
On the other side of that line are all those people who recognize an enduring moral order in the universe, a constant human nature, and high duties toward the order spiritual and the order temporal.
Nonsense. Conservatives recognize no moral order except "grab what you can". They fail to understand that human nature (except theirs) is improving.
(See, THAT is how you point out that something is nonsense: you explain WHY it is nonsense.)

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 3:27 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 315 of 331 (902281)
11-21-2022 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Phat
11-20-2022 9:28 AM


Re: Countering Galbraiths extreme Liberalism...
Phat writes:
Liberals are greedy for power and control. They want everybody to fall in line, under the guise of social altruism.
You make my point about conservatives. Nothing can change your mind, no matter how many times you're shown that it's wrong.
"A society that puts equality before freedom with get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."
Note how the US was founded on the principle of "freedom" - yet it took almost a hundred years of "freedom" to abolish slavery - and a hundred and fifty years later, the "freedom" is still not equal. Your Goober Friedman is playing fast and loose with his definitions.
And he's saying that greed is a good thing?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 11-20-2022 9:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 317 of 331 (902364)
11-22-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by Phat
11-21-2022 3:19 PM


Re: If you say so
Phat writes:
Liberals want to control conservative property and finance.
Of course conservative propaganda would tell you that. They want you to help protect THEIR property and finance - while they're stealing yours.
Phat writes:
It is never gonna happen. Nor should it.
Of course it shouldn't. But it's a lie. It's the conservatives who want to control YOUR property and finance.
Phat writes:
Beyond necessary taxation...
Nobody is suggesting anything beyond necessary taxation. But feeding the children IS necessary.
Phat writes:
... no reparations...
Get off that. Why shouldn't you pay what you owe?
Phat writes:
...welfare, or social equality programs should ever be forced on an electorate that never elected you.
You fucking bastard. How can you DARE to be against feeding the hungry?
Phat writes:
This is one of the main reasons for a clear division in US politics.
Yes, there is a division between hateful, greedy bastards like you and people with compassion. There are also a lot of people in the middle who can be fooled by your lies.
Phat writes:
even the bible advocates a cheerful and willing giver as opposed to a mandatory one.
It MANDATES a cheerful giver. Give your last two mites or you fry.
It's only because of greedy, hateful bastards like you that the churches have failed to fulfill their mandate. It's only because of greedy, hateful bastards like you that the government is FORCED to be the conscience of society.
Phat writes:
You may argue that Ananias and Saphire had no choice, but anyone who knows God, the Holy Spirit knows that He does not simply go around slaying people for being disobedient.
You DO NOT know God.
Phat writes:
And even though you always deny deny deny that you are advocating for a government to institute mandatory taxes, reparations, and social changes for the good of everyone, you really do support such a system.
Supporting is not advocating. I say we unbelievers HAVE to do it. Our consciences demand no less.
But YOU fight against it.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Phat, posted 11-21-2022 3:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Phat, posted 11-22-2022 1:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 319 of 331 (902489)
11-24-2022 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Phat
11-22-2022 1:26 PM


Re: If you say so
Phat writes:
I pushed the right buttons to get an honest reply out of you.
Every reply you get from me is an honest one.
Phat writes:
There really IS a liberal agenda.
It isn't a "liberal" agenda. It's a decent agenda. All decent people support it.
Phat writes:
YOU really ARE authoritarian s.
I asked you before what's "authoritarian" about it. You didn't answer. How about an honest answer?
Phat writes:
You justify the mandatory control because after all it NEEDS to be done.
As I have said, we HAVE the mandatory taxes regardless of the party in power. But it's only the hated "liberals" who want to spend the money to feed the children. You right-wing fanatics want to give it all to the rich.
Phat writes:
Why did you have to try and sell me a nice nice agenda when the facts show that you guys make it your secular version of a religion?
You talk about "facts" but you don't show any.
Phat writes:
And you won't win the next election.
I'm not running in any election.
And you're the last person on earth who's capable of predicting election results.
Phat writes:
Each side claims that the other side is the villains.
But it's easy to show the villainy on the conservative side. Your hero Trump brags about cheating on his taxes. He brags about groping women. He can't open his moth without lying. And his henchmen in the Republican Party protect him from the law.
And YOU agree with him on everything. At least you're ashamed to openly support him.
On the other hand, you have not shown that "liberals" are villains. It's pretty hard to find villainy in feeding the hungry and healing the sick, isn't it?
Phat writes:
We have liberalism as a secular authoritarian "ideal"...
1. Either back up your claim about authoritarianism or shut up about it.
2. Nobody is saying it's an "ideal". It's the bare minimum.
Phat writes:
I really need to start a new topic on this.
You don't need a new topic. You just need to respond to the rebuttals.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Phat, posted 11-22-2022 1:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 11-24-2022 12:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(4)
Message 321 of 331 (902514)
11-24-2022 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Phat
11-24-2022 12:24 PM


Re: If you say so
Phat writes:
authoritarianism
1) the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.
That would be the conservatives, forcing women to carry dangerous pregnancies to full term.
Phat writes:
2) lack of concern for the wishes or opinions of others.
That would be the conservatives, with no concern for whether the poor starve or freeze to death.
Phat writes:
You can employ your euphimism of "decent agenda" all you like, but the fact is you prefer equality over freedom.
It's not a euphemism.
Yes, I do prefer people to eat equally instead of having the freedom to starve. That is not authoritarian.
Phat writes:
If any child in the world were hungry, you would consider it a sacred duty for the government (a liberal progressive one, likely eventually a global one if the antichrist spirit gets its way) to tax or utilize my assets in order to feed them.
Yes. A thousand times yes.
You should be ashamed of yourself for hoarding "your" assets while children go hungry.
Phat writes:
That is, by definition, the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.
Not even close. It's a social contract. Fulfilling the terms of a contract is not authoritarian.
Phat writes:
I prefer the right to control (and distribute) my own private property and my own private money. The liberal authoritarians HATE that!
The liberals hate it when you watch children starve and don't do anything about it. AND you have the gall to act all holier-than-thou about it.
Phat writes:
Ray Dalio explains it all rather well in this video...
If it could be explained well... ("Y'see, Lord, I had to step on that homeless man's face because...") and if you're half as smart as you claim to be, you should be able to explain it yourself.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 11-24-2022 12:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Phat, posted 11-24-2022 11:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 327 of 331 (902557)
11-25-2022 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Phat
11-24-2022 11:15 PM


Re: If you say so
Phat writes:
I like how you frame your argument. *cough* appeal to emotionalism*cough*.
People dying is an emotional subject. Empathy doesn't necessarily strengthen my argument but lack of empathy weakens yours.
Phat writes:
Not that I need to defend myself, but I am far from being a "Mr. Potter" or an "Ebenezer Scrooge"...
I damn near quoted Ebenezer Scrooge.
"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"
"Then let them die and reduce the surplus population."
Sounds a lot like you.
Phat writes:
... just because I lean conservative.
You're not mean and nasty because you're conservative. You're conservative because you're mean and nasty.
Phat writes:
My argument is that yes, an administration (imagine a global government) that insists upon control and distribution of ALL finances held by ALL private individuals in the context of feeding everybody would in fact be authoritarian.
And that argument is wrong. Is an administration that taxes ALL finances held by ALL private individuals to build roads and schools authoritarian?
Phat writes:
I am NOT against helping the poor.
You certainly come across that way.
Phat writes:
My argument centers on whether giving and providing for ALL of the people (be it a nation or a world) *should* be mandated by government (be it local, national, or global)...
For *should*, substitute "has to be because nobody else is doing it*.
Phat writes:
... rather than left up to individual decisions.
See above. Individual decisions are failing miserably.
Phat writes:
My argument is that any mandatory system beyond taxation for basic services (which we have now) is authoritarian and SHOULD be opposed.
Feeding people IS a basic service. It doesn't get any more basic than that.
Phat writes:
And you would chide me for "not doing what Jesus mandated I do".
YES.
Phat writes:
You don't believe the man/God ever existed, yet you always roll Him out of the archives whenever you want to support your authoritarian liberal agenda!
You really are an idiot.
I expect you to do what Jesus said because you DO claim to believe in him. I have asked you many times, If you really do believe in Him, why would you not do what He said? It has nothing to do with what I believe. It's about knowing YOU by YOUR fruits.
Phat writes:
You won't get all of the votes on this one unless you keep letting enough hungry and desperate people (without background checks) into the country simply to swing the vote perpetually to your party, ideology, and "side".
I told you before, I'm not asking for votes.
Phat writes:
You have not refuted my argument that liberals are (also) authoritarians.
Sure I have. I have pointed out that ALL governments tax their citizens. That is not authoritarian. YOU have not responded to the rebuttal.
Phat writes:
You simply blame the conservatives for being the WRONG authority.
Not for "being" wrong. For DOING wrong.
Phat writes:
The problem is that "you guys" make up a little more than 50% of the population---hardly a mandate for such a "necessity".
Eating is a necessity. No "mandate" is needed for feeding people. It's the decent thing to do.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Phat, posted 11-24-2022 11:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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