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Author | Topic: Evangelical Support Group | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18639 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Phat writes:
Kindly explain the difference between a made-up God in 2022 versus a made-up God penned by any number of Biblical writers.ringo writes: Such hubris! That humans *ought* to know better than to make up a God! You will be proven wrong very shortly...likely within a year, when our entire system begins to unravel and the world is faced with everything that Matthew warned us against.
The difference is that the Biblical writers didn't know any better. You ought to. ringo writes: "Science" is not some shamanistic ancient ritual to consult in order to form cognizant philosophical worldviews. The peanut gallery will inevitably see it that way, however. When our cush materialistic reality falls apart, you guys will blame the far right and link it with Christianity as the major global problem that, as xongsmith says, needs to become extinct. Rather, the ultra-liberals will pine for a world of universal love, acceptance, and inclusiveness which will end up being a phony counterfeit to the original ideal expressed through Jesus Christ.
The Biblical writers didn't have science to guide them. You ought to. You're the one who wants to have it both ways. You piggyback on the Bible when it suits you and deny it when it doesn't suit you.
| I, on the other hand, am pretty consistent:1. The Bible says what it says. 2. Much of what it says is wrong. Again, ringo thinks that rational critically thinking secular minds have it right. Which you don't. Without acceptance of and obedience to Jesus, you will fail...along with the antichrist spirit of the secular age. ringo writes: Why on earth would any people make up a nasty God? It was the people themselves who were nasty...into idol worship, temple prostitution sex (as a tantric spirituality), and incest.
They made up a nasty God who punished them for stepping out of line. You make up a white-washed God who only asks you to do what you already want to do. Nonsense. I worship a God who is personal and approachable...not some static character in an ancient book!
And if YOU are going to ever mention scripture at all, you need to learn to accept it as it is. I don't have to *learn* anything from you. It is you who reject God and twist the meanings of an ancient book to line up with your socialist human ideal.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2339 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 8.1
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Without acceptance of and obedience to Jesus, you will fail...along with the antichrist spirit of the secular age. sure Phat. *dismissive wanking motion*
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ringo Member (Idle past 665 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You should learn to read. It's a useful skill. ringo writes:
Such hubris! That humans *ought* to know better than to make up a God! The difference is that the Biblical writers didn't know any better. You ought to. I didn't say anything like, "humans *ought* to know better than to make up a God". I said, "THE BIBLICAL WRITERS" didn't know any better. They didn't have science. They didn't know the real reasons for things like lightning, so they made up gods to explain them. You ought to know better. (And you should also learn what hubris means.)
Phat writes:
Blah blah blah.... What a load of rubbish.
You will be proven wrong very shortly...likely within a year, when our entire system begins to unravel and the world is faced with everything that Matthew warned us against. Phat writes:
There have always been wars and rumors of wars. I don't have time to list the wars we've had in my own lifetime. wars and rumors of wars The difference is that now we try to stop them.
Phat writes:
That's what I'm telling you. Science is NOT shamanistic, like your religion, and it SHOULD be consulted in order to form cognizant philosophical worldviews. Ever hear of a little problem called "global climate change" that science has been trying to warn us about?
"Science" is not some shamanistic ancient ritual to consult in order to form cognizant philosophical worldviews. Phat writes:
Your thought patterns are so bizarre that it's hard to believe what I'm reading. Jesus Christ DID pine for a world of universal love, acceptance, and inclusiveness. yet, you spit on Him and yearn for an ultra-Trump world of hate and lies. Don't walk around barefoot if you don't want the homeless people you step on to squish up between your toes.
Rather, the ultra-liberals will pine for a world of universal love, acceptance, and inclusiveness which will end up being a phony counterfeit to the original ideal expressed through Jesus Christ. Phat writes:
So you prefer irrational, uncrtical, unthinking minds?
Again, ringo thinks that rational critically thinking secular minds have it right. Phat writes:
And yet, you have never been able to back up that empty assertion.
Which you don't. Phat writes:
And yet, you have never been able to back up that empty assertion.
Without acceptance of and obedience to Jesus, you will fail... Phat writes:
The antichrist spirit is yours. You are the one who denies Jesus.
... along with the antichrist spirit of the secular age. Phat writes:
It doesn't matter "why". They DID. Read the Old Testament.
Why on earth would any people make up a nasty God? Phat writes:
That's what the shamans claimed. The people were nasty and the nasty god would punish them if they didn't keep the shamans supplied with barbecued oxen.
It was the people themselves who were nasty... Phat writes:
Horrors! Some of them might even have been Mexicans! ... into idol worship, temple prostitution sex (as a tantric spirituality), and incest. I have asked you before what is so terrible about any of those things and you didn't answer. Answer now.
Phat writes:
You're just repeating what I said. How is it nonsense when i say it?
ringo writes:
Nonsense. I worship a God who is personal and approachable... You make up a white-washed God who only asks you to do what you already want to do. Phat writes:
You keep missing the point. The character in the book is the only evidence we have that Jesus ever existed. You're throwing out the only evidence we have and making up a a white-washed God who only asks you to do what you already want to do.
... not some static character in an ancient book! Phat writes:
Again, you should learn to read. It's a useful skill. a white-washed God who only asks you to do what you already want to do. I said, "IF you are going to ever mention scripture at all, you need to learn to accept it as it is." You can't quote the parts you like and spit on the parts you don't like. You will not get away with that. Your dishonesty will be exposed.
Phat writes:
1. I do not reject God. I reject YOUR perverted theology. If there was a God, I would be His best buddy. It is you who reject God and twist the meanings of an ancient book to line up with your socialist human ideal.2. I do not "twist" anything. i quote exactly what the Bible says. I try to UNtwist the mangling that your perverted theology does. 3. You keep forgetting that socialism is a very good thing: schools, roads, etc. Don't get all of your ideas from Trump. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Phat Member Posts: 18639 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
ringo writes: Oh ok. So in other wods, you are implying that any and all modern humans should know better. Its not enough that you personally chose not to believe in an ancient messenger as relevant but only in His message which resonated with your modern liberalism. Got it. I didn't say anything like, "humans *ought* to know better than to make up a God". I said, "THE BIBLICAL WRITERS" didn't know any better. They didn't have science. They didn't know the real reasons for things like lightning, so they made up gods to explain them. You ought to know better. Im not pro Trump, despite ringos attempts to link me with and label me as a Trump. I am also not a liberal for several reasons. I am a conservative moderate who is against the public-at-large being responsible for the huge national debt which our country carries. The liberals seem to think that they are entitled to spend whatever is necessary to help everyone...even though not everyone will end up paying it back. You people do not understand the disciplined reality of money in general. You seem to think that if the majority can agree to keep using "it" as if it is limitless, then we all ought to want to help pay the bill. Not I. The government will never find all of my money, nor will they get their hands on any of it...except perhaps through sales tax. Not even the threat of digital money (and hence digital tracking) catch me off guard. I will not be sucked into an inclusive lovey dovey agenda. Yes, I owe the ancient messenger all that I have. I'm just explaining to you that He is NOT the same as the government. Thus, it will be all of you who are stuck with the bill...even when the populists are in power and want to spend your precious social money to help enrich the businesses rather than the poor unwashed masses. Xongsmith thinks that all Republicans (and conservative Christians) are evil and should be exterminated. The problem with you people is that when you are in power, everyone's money and taxes become yours to do what you want with. There will be a revolt, however. Even now, wealthy families are buying gold and moving it to offshore vaults. They see what's coming and they want nothing to do with your Green New Bill. Some more info:quote: I might add that I would never do anything illegal, and am not a wealthy man. I simply protest a digital currency system where every bit of money and financial transactions can be traced by the government. Edited by Phat, . Edited by Phat, .
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nwr Member Posts: 6484 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 8.9
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I am a conservative moderate who is against the public-at-large being responsible for the huge national debt which our country carries. I agree. It should be the responsibility of the rich conservatives who ran up the debt. But lots of luck collecting it from them.
The liberals seem to think that they are entitled to spend whatever is necessary to help everyone...even though not everyone will end up paying it back. Oh, bullshit. It is the conservatives who run up the debt.
The problem with you people is that when you are in power, everyone's money and taxes become yours to do what you want with. If you look at recent trends, the deficit goes up when Republicans are in charge and it goes down under Democratic administrations. You have it backwards.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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ringo Member (Idle past 665 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I didn't "choose" not to believe any more than you chose not to believe in leprechauns. We both don't believe because there is no evidence. The only difference is that you have a double standard for your made-up god.
Its not enough that you personally chose not to believe... Phat writes:
It isn't just ancient messengers that are irrelevant. ALL messengers are irrelevant. It's the message that matters - and you know that. You don't throw out your bills and worship the envelopes. But you have a double standard for your made-up god.
... in an ancient messenger as relevant... Phat writes:
And why wouldn't ancient liberalism resonate with modern liberalism? Has love changed? Have neighbors changed?
... but only in His message which resonated with your modern liberalism. Phat writes:
I keep asking you and you never answer: If you don't like Trump, why do you agree with him about everything? Why do you use the same insults as he does? Answer the question.
Im not pro Trump, despite ringos attempts to link me with and label me as a Trump. Phat writes:
Ignorance? Or hate?
I am also not a liberal for several reasons. Phat writes:
Not "entitled". Required. By human decency.
The liberals seem to think that they are entitled to spend whatever is necessary to help everyone... Phat writes:
Where did Jesus say, "Lend to thy neighbor - but make damn sure he pays you back, even if his children die because of it"? ...even though not everyone will end up paying it back. Of course, it DOES get paid back. People on welfare shop at your store, don't they? The people we help don't stash all of their money away in the Cayman Islands. They spend it locally. If you'e worried about money going away and never coming back, look to the rich tax evaders (like Trump, who thinks it's "smart" to avoid taxes).
Phat writes:
And you don't understand the circulation of money, As the Preacher said, "Cast your bread upon the waters, for you will find it after many days." (Ecclesiastes 11:1)
You people do not understand the disciplined reality of money in general. Phat writes:
It IS limitless. It circulates - i.e. it moves in a circle. You give spare change to a homeless guy and he spends it on drugs and the drug dealer spends it in your store to feed his children. It's only the rich conservatives who limit it by hiding it in the Cayman Islands and stopping the circulation.
You seem to think that if the majority can agree to keep using "it" as if it is limitless... Phat writes:
You need to stop thinking of it as a "bill".
... we all ought to want to help pay the bill. Phat writes:
So you're a tax evader, like Trump.
The government will never find all of my money, nor will they get their hands on any of it... Phat writes:
So you'll never be a real Christian.
I will not be sucked into an inclusive lovey dovey agenda.
Phat writes:
You don't need to mansplain that to me. I have told you many, many, many times that it is NOT about the government at all. Yes, I owe the ancient messenger all that I have. I'm just explaining to you that He is NOT the same as the government. You have made up a convenient, self-serving god that you never have to give anything to, even if you claim to owe everything to him.
Phat writes:
I have never been in power.
The problem with you people is that when you are in power... Phat writes:
To do what needs to be done.
... everyone's money and taxes become yours to do what you want with. Phat writes:
I don't have a "Green New Bill" or know what one is. There will be a revolt, however. Even now, wealthy families are buying gold and moving it to offshore vaults. They see what's coming and they want nothing to do with your Green New Bill. And FYI, those wealthy families are robbing YOU just like they're robbing the poor.
Phat writes:
Theft. What is the offshore system? Are you actually suggesting that hiding money from creditors is a good thing? Did you read your own quote?
quote:Do you really think that's a good thing? Phat writes:
But you support the rich doing it.
I might add that I would never do anything illegal... Phat writes:
Your hatred of the government is noted. Maybe you have never heard the phrase, "We, the people...." I simply protest a digital currency system where every bit of money and financial transactions can be traced by the government. It's sad. The US once showed such promise - but it's being taken over by a bunch of lying, thieving conservative assholes. And like the poor whites who fought to conserve slavery, you're on their side.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.3
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Its not enough that you personally chose not to believe in an ancient messenger as relevant Scene in the X-Men movie in which a young mutant comes out to his parents:
Mother: But ... can't you just choose to not be a mutant?
Belief is not a choice. Even less so is disbelief. Haven't you ever read a deconversion testimonial? In many of them (eg, Dan Barker's) the individual desperately wants to hold onto his beliefs and must watch helplessly as those beliefs crumble before his eyes. Once you begin to realize that your beliefs are not true, then you lose the ability to continue to believe in them. It's not a choice ... unless you choose to engage in self-delusion, but that gets us into mental illness.
The problem with you people is that when you are in power, everyone's money and taxes become yours to do what you want with. That's the Republicans you're talking about. When they commit to massive spending (eg, $2 trillion permanent tax cuts for the rich, two massive wars under Dubya), they do not bother to figure out how to pay for it. In sharp contrast as the Democrats were crafting that large relief bill for everybody (not just the hyper-rich) front and center in the discussions was how they were going to pay for it. It is very clear that Democrats are the fiscally responsible ones whereas it's the Republicans who are the reckless spendthrifts. History bears that over the past decades as Republicans would drive us deeper into debt and generally ruin the economy and Democrats had to then come in and clean up their mess. We lose jobs under a Republican administration and gain jobs under a Democrat. No balanced budgets under a Republican, but we did get one under a Democrat. And after running on inflation, what is the Republican plan for dealing with inflation? None. Instead, their Number One most important priority is investigating Hunter Biden. Watch their clown cars roll up into the Capitol.
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Phat Member Posts: 18639 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
dwise1 writes: After you mentioned that, and recalling how I once read Dan Barkers book, I sought to google the deconversion in order to get a fresh review of the perspective. Haven't you ever read a deconversion testimonial? In many of them (eg, Dan Barker's) the individual desperately wants to hold onto his beliefs and must watch helplessly as those beliefs crumble before his eyes. Once you begin to realize that your beliefs are not true, then you lose the ability to continue to believe in them. It's not a choice ... unless you choose to engage in self-delusion, but that gets us into mental illness. Instead, I found this: Dan Barkers "deconversion" The response was enlightening and shows me that two sides to every story exist...be it through the new atheists or through Christian apologists. I recommend you scan the reply.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.2
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There is one side to Barker's story. His. Everything else is just people trying to prop up and defend their own beliefs.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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ringo Member (Idle past 665 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I glanced at it. It seems like typical apologetics and philosophical mumbo-jumbo - with relatively little reference to Dan Barker.
I found this: Dan Barkers "deconversion" Phat writes:
The apologetic side has always been there. It never changes and it doesn't address the rebuttals. The response was enlightening and shows me that two sides to every story exist..Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Phat Member Posts: 18639 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Keep in mind that the other side of this story came from dwise1. I have always respected David for his lengthy and concise posts, filled with anecdotes from his own personal life and his frustration at dealing with dishonest creationists. He puts a face on atheism/agnosticism that compels me to pay attention. It's like I could be friends with him despite our disagreements.
ringo is different. He never agrees with any of my arguments and forces me to examine my own beliefs with a touch of humor. I doubt that he and I would be "best buddies" as he claims that he and Jesus would be if Jesus existed. If we lived in the same town, we likely would end up arguing until we couldn't stand each other...like two chess opponents meeting at the park for endless matches. I must say that he is far ahead in the series...to his credit he never leaves a post unanswered and yet he loves to defend his own deconversion and hint that I'm less of an altruistic Christian than he is an empathetic nonbeliever. Theo, however, is just plain annoying and often condescending. jar was that way also.
ringo writes: It addressed the issue that dwise1 initially brought up. The apologetic side has always been there. It never changes and it doesn't address the rebuttals.I will admit that I am not unbiased in regard to this argument, though I claim that none of you are either. You want to hear deconversion stories. It reinforces your own decisions to drop the belief.
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Phat Member Posts: 18639 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Theo writes: There is one side to every deconversion story. There is also another side to conversion stories and to apologetic defenses. That is what I meant. There is one side to Barker's story. His. Everything else is just people trying to prop up and defend their own beliefs. I read an interesting article from another source. The Deconversion Stories That Go Unnoticed The author brings up some good points.
quote:Based on the criteria of this particular author, I myself would be a poster child for a nonbeliever rather than a believer. ringo has emphasized this point repeatedly, though I think his standards for what a Christian *should be* are far too strict. In comparing today's modern "Christians" with the widow with two mites, the early believers, and certain Christian communities isolated from the rest of society, the modern believer simply does not stand up.
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ringo Member (Idle past 665 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You wouldn't be able to run away like you do here.
If we lived in the same town, we likely would end up arguing until we couldn't stand each other... Phat writes:
When have I ever defended my "deconversion"?
he loves to defend his own deconversion... Phat writes:
It's not a "hint". You are not an altruistic Christian by any stretch of the imagination. You are openly anti-Christian.
... and hint that I'm less of an altruistic Christian.... Phat writes:
I am not an "emphatic non-believer". I drifted away from belief. It was not traumatic for me but I was definitely reluctant. I could go back easily, if there was anything to it.
... than he is an empathetic nonbeliever. Phat writes:
I couldn't care less about deconversion stories.
You want to hear deconversion stories. Phat writes:
It wasn't a decision. It was just a gradual realization that I was free of the superstition. It reinforces your own decisions to drop the belief.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 665 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Jesus' standards, not mine.
ringo has emphasized this point repeatedly, though I think his standards for what a Christian *should be* are far too strict.quote: Phat writes:
So you change the standards to suit he {desired) behavior. In comparing today's modern "Christians" with the widow with two mites, the early believers, and certain Christian communities isolated from the rest of society, the modern believer simply does not stand up.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Phat Member Posts: 18639 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
I was referring to the sheep and goats judgement.
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