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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 863 of 1864 (902015)
11-16-2022 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by candle2
11-16-2022 4:20 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, Exodus 24:4 "And Moses...rose up early in the
morning, an builded an altar under the hill, and twelve
pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel."

There is such an altar at Jabal al Lawz. There is also
evidence where twelve pillars were erected. A few of
the pillars still stand.

Does the sight in the Peninsula have such an altar and
pillars?
Doing a little reasearch myself, these identifications are extremely dubious. Again, far from the “overwhelming evidence” you claimed.
What next? Are you going to say that since Paul said Mt Sinai was in Arabia he meant Saudi Arabia? That’s one of the standard lines from the Wyatt camp. It’s also pretty stupid for reasons that should be obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 4:20 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 865 of 1864 (902020)
11-16-2022 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by candle2
11-16-2022 4:50 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
The split rock is still there. And the rocks at the base of
it are smooth from water flowing over them.

To the best of my knowledge, split rocks aren’t that rare. And if I remember correctly there wasn’t much evidence of water.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 4:50 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 868 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 7:37 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 871 of 1864 (902047)
11-17-2022 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 866 by candle2
11-16-2022 5:12 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, Exodus 32 tell about the Israelite making a golden
calf while Moses was on the mountain.

Aaron built an altar on which to place the golden calf.

The altar is still there.
You say that, but you need evidence - which you don’t have,
quote:
There are several petroglyphs of calves and bulls on large
boulders, much like those in Egypt
As I am sure you know perfectly well Exodus makes absolutely no mention of petroglyphs. And if you’ve done decades of research, you’ll know that only a few of those many petroglyphs have anything to do with cattle. Insisting that these few identify the site while ignoring the vast majority is hardly rational.
So no, there is no clear connection between these petroglyphs and the Exodus story.
I think we’ve got to the point where we can say that your claim of “overwhelming evidence” is certainly false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 5:12 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 872 of 1864 (902048)
11-17-2022 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 868 by candle2
11-16-2022 7:37 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, if split rocks are not that rare, then it should be
quite simple for you to tell us about the one in the
Peninsula.
It will? Why? It’s not as if I’ve been there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 7:37 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 878 of 1864 (902126)
11-18-2022 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 873 by candle2
11-17-2022 2:47 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Theodoric, when I post something you can take it to
the bank.
You claimed to have “overwhelming evidence”. That wasn’t true.
You claimed to have a site that exactly matched the Biblical description of the crossing site. That wasn’t true.
You claimed that the dark top of the mountain you call Mt Sinai was evidence. That wasn’t true.
quote:
I have shown ample evidence for my assertion. I have
not been shown one ounce of evidence by Paulk or you.
And that is a blatant falsehood. By what standard can you possibly claim that this is true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by candle2, posted 11-17-2022 2:47 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 879 of 1864 (902127)
11-18-2022 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 876 by candle2
11-17-2022 6:59 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
An ancient Saudi map (look it up) identifies Nuweiba
Beach as Nuwayba' al Muzayyinah.

In other words, "Waters of Moses opening."

You believe what you believe without one ounce of proof.
Oyun Musa, previously referred to means “The Wells of Moses”. But apparently you don’t consider that evidence of anything.
Perhaps you can give a reliable source for your “translation” because there seems to be substantial disagreement on the matter.
(And I really would like to know how an “ancient” map could be “Saudi”, when Saudi Arabia only took that name in the 1930s)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by candle2, posted 11-17-2022 6:59 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 883 by candle2, posted 11-19-2022 4:29 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 885 of 1864 (902234)
11-19-2022 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 883 by candle2
11-19-2022 4:29 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, I have more to post, but before I do, tell me if you
honestly believe the Pharoah's entire military drowned in
six inches of water?

No, because I don’t believe that the Bitter Lakes were only six inches deep. I think you made that up. Of course, I don’t believe that the Pharoah’s army drowned at all.
quote:
On top of that, do you also believe that this six inches of
water so completely destroyed all evidence of the
Egyptian military that not a trace remained?
Aside from the six inches being your invention, aside from the fact that there is plenty of time for the remains to be lost, apart from the fact that you have yet to provide any significant evidence that the supposed remains at Nuweiba have anything to do with the Exodus and aside from the fact that events that never happened wouldn’t leave evidence?
quote:
Numbers 33 has the Israelites turning this way and that
in order to get to Nuweiba
No it doesn’t. 33:7-8 is the only part that deals with the approach to the crossing site (which certainly is not Nuweiba)
7 They set out from Etham and turned back to Pi-hahiroth, which faces Baal-zephon, and they camped before Migdol. 8 They set out from Pi-hahiroth, passed through the sea into the wilderness, went a three days’ journey in the wilderness of Etham, and camped at Marah.
Nothing about a wadi, or having to “turn this way and that”. Indeed according to Exodus they were camped at Etham when the instruction to go to Migdol arrived (13:20 and 14:1-2).
Funny how these “exact” matches turn out to be no match at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by candle2, posted 11-19-2022 4:29 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 886 by candle2, posted 11-19-2022 6:00 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 890 of 1864 (902245)
11-20-2022 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 886 by candle2
11-19-2022 6:00 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
You’ve already had answers to most of them. In the post you reply to, so you can’t honestly pretend that you haven’t.
And I’ll leave you to show that the Bitter Lakes were a “small body 0f water” that could be easily walked around - while under sustained attack.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by candle2, posted 11-19-2022 6:00 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 897 of 1864 (902288)
11-21-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 895 by candle2
11-21-2022 10:05 AM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
You’ve provided rather less evidence than you claim.
quote:
How did the coral encrusted chariot wheels, including
the golden chariot wheel, chariot axles, etc..., which fit
the ones in use by Egypt during the time of Moses, come
to be in the exact location where Moses parted the Red
Sea?
We don’t know that the coral structures contain chariot wheels, and the reported presence of iron is against it.
The “gold chariot wheel” - which does not look much like a genuine Egyptian chariot wheel, is probably a small brass hand wheel planted at the site by Ron Wyatt.
And the claim that the site is “where Moses parted the Red Sea” is almost certainly false. Indeed, since the supposed chariot remains are the main evidence for that claim it’s circular.
And “the exact ones in use at the time of Moses” is only true if you’re prepared to accept the absurd rewrite of Egyptian history offered by the Wyatt camp. Since I am not prepared to believe that Moses was two different people (or any of the other nonsense invented by Wyatt and his supporters) that’s really a non-starter.
quote:
Why is the top of Jabal al Lawz black, as though
blackened with fire and heat? When turned over the
rocks are brown-the same color as the other mountain
peaks?
It’s the natural colour of the rock. So not evidence for your claims at all.
quote:
There are two altars at this mountain. One fits the
description of Moses' altar. The other one could have
been built for the golden calf
Not true. The first “altar” isn’t an altar, it’s just some walls presumed to be associated with an altar.
quote:
The petroglyphs of bulls on the rocks are not, excuse the
pun, rock solid evidence of the Israelites being there, bit it
is evidence that they could have been there.
It’s insignificant as evidence, the more so since there are a lot of petroglyphs - at that site and others - and only a very few of cattle.
quote:
The ancient cemetery close to the mountain is large
enough to contain 3000 graves (the number of deaths
reported by Exodus.
I guess if you’re desperate then you have to clutch at straws, but the size of the cemetery is hardly significant evidence - it’s not worth mentioning.
The cave and the size of the valley are likewise too insignificant.
quote:
Psalm 77:19 "Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the
great waters, and thy footsteps are not known."

How would people from over 3000 years ago know that
there was a natural crossing path under the sea between
Nuweiba and SA?
Where does Psalm 77 say that it is about Nuweiba? And doesn’t the fact that there is no “natural crossing path” rather rule out any knowledge? Just admit that Ron Wyatt screwed up with the satellite data.

Really if this is the best you have, you have nothing. You should have taken the time to research the issues. To look at all sides. Instead of gullibly falling for this nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 10:05 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 899 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 1:48 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 900 of 1864 (902311)
11-21-2022 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 899 by candle2
11-21-2022 1:48 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
quote:
Paulk, more evidence that Moses the Red Sea at
Nuweiba Beach.
Given the complete unsuitability of the crossing you are going to need much better evidence than you have offered so far. And which Moses was it? Tuthosis or Senmut?
quote:
Numbers 33: 7-8 "And they removed from Etham, and
turned unto Pi-Hahiroth, which is before (facing)
Ba-al-Zephon: and they camped before (facing) Migdol.

And they departed from before Pi-Hahiroth (now they are
facing away from Pi-Hahiroth, and moving towards Baal-
Zephon, on the SA side of the Sea) and passed through
the midst of the Sea.

Migdol refers to a tower; a lookout; a fort; or a vantage
point in the foothills of the wadi watir that leads to
Nuweiba Beach.
Why do you think it doesn’t mean Migdol?
Wikipedia
Migdol is east of the Dwelling of the Lion,[5] which has been located at Tell el-Borg,[6] near the north coast of the Sinai Peninsula and the estuary of the Ballah Lakes.
quote:
Egyptian sources describe there being such a vantage
point (fortress) on the Egyptian's north-east border.

Nuweiba Beach / Pi-Hahiroth is also located on the
North-East border.
It isn’t on the border as such, is it? It’s a way down the coast on the Gulf of Aqaba. So without more evidence than a vague geographical reference that probably refers to somewhere else that isn’t even called Migdol it’s not exactly looking good for you.
quote:
Pi-Hahiroth comes from "Peh" meaning mouth. And
"Chowr" meaning cavity, gorges, cave, and hole.

Pi-Hahiroth simply means "Mouth of the gorges."

George's refers to a narrow valley between hills or
mountains, typically with steep rocky walls, and oftentimes
with a stream running through.

This fits perfectly with being on Nuweiba Beach and
looking up through the Wadi watir.
Shame that the text makes absolutely no reference to any such feature in the area. And a speculative translation - which is what you have - is hardly enough evidence.
quote:
Baal was linked to a midianite site of worship to the god
Baal of Zephon, in present day SA, directly across from
Nuweiba, about four miles from the Red Sea at
Saraf al-Bal.

Ball was a supposedly powerful god of the Canaanites
and SA. Baal was not the God of the Egyotians.
Don’t forget that there were Canaanites living in Egypt. The suggestion that it refers to Arsinoe seems more plausible to me.
So again, all very, very weak, and not nearly enough to deal with the fact that the crossing would be very difficult. Ron Wyatt thought it was only 300’ deep the whole way across - that’s the “land bridge”. Turned out he just didn’t understand the data.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 899 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 1:48 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 901 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 3:05 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 902 of 1864 (902316)
11-21-2022 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 901 by candle2
11-21-2022 3:05 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
quote:
Paulk, you don't have the guts to put forth your case for
the crossing to be at the Sea of Reeds, or for Mount
Sinai to be in Egypt.
Wrong. I don’t really care about either of those so I haven’t investigated them. My point is that the claims for Nuweiba are bunk created by an ignorant fraud. Which I have been arguing fro.
And I know that quite well because it’s been discussed here.
quote:
I have never debated such a timid and insecure person in
my entire life.

I don't believe that you know what you think. Whatever it is,
you lack the ability to defend it.

In fact, you lack the ability to even state it.
Which is clearly your ignorance at work.
Or perhaps your anger at the fact that your “evidence” has turned out to be crap because you were too lazy to do any real research or examine any side but the fraudulent Ron Wyatt’s.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 3:05 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 903 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 5:05 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 909 of 1864 (902350)
11-22-2022 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 903 by candle2
11-21-2022 5:05 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
quote:
Paulk, I have never debated such a timid person. One who
is so completely unsure of what he believes.
What a stupid lie.
quote:
The truth of the matter is that you have no idea about
how to interpret what the Bible says about the Red Sea
crossing or Mt. Sinai.
And another one.
quote:
You have not disproved anything I've said. No even close.
You know I admit that I haven’t done much - just more than you. And quite sufficient to address your nonsense.
quote:
On top of that, you run when confronted about your own
Interpretation of the events.
The actual events - if there were any - are long lost to us. The story is a long way from reality. I haven’t run from that at all.
If you want an example of somebody actually running, your retreat from the carbon dating discussion will do nicely. Lying didn’t work there, either, did it?
quote:
I am not angry. I am merely disappointed in your lack
of cognitive reasoning
In other words you are angry that I dare to reason rather than mindlesssly worshipping falsehood like you.
quote:
I think you have it in your mind where the events
happened. You have a strong opinion.
Well, you think wrongly, I very much doubt that there was an actual event,
quote:
I also believe that you lack the confidence in yourself
To defend your position.

You are timid in this respect
No, you don’t. You’re just lying because your claims have been exposed as false. You never had “overwhelming evidence” or even evidence worth speaking of, You’ve never done any real research on the matter. You’ve never looked at the opposition. You don’t even dare mention Ron Wyatt’s name although he is the originator of these ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 903 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 5:05 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 911 of 1864 (902361)
11-22-2022 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 910 by ringo
11-22-2022 11:05 AM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
quote:
The possibilities are:
1. They crossed at Nuweiba.
2. They crossed somewhere else.
3. They never crossed at all.
candle2 obviously wants to rubbish the alternative sites, although he hasn’t exactly managed to provide valid criticisms.
But that won’t make Nuweiba any better. Since Nuweiba isn’t really viable as a crossing site, such a tactic can only reinforce the third option - they didn’t cross at all - as the correct conclusion.
His idea of “cognitive reasoning” apparently misses that fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 910 by ringo, posted 11-22-2022 11:05 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 955 of 1864 (903132)
12-04-2022 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by candle2
12-04-2022 3:18 PM


Re: English Speaking Israelites?
quote:
Phat, Wales is primarily of the tribe Ephraim.
The Welsh are a Celtic people. So, no.
quote:
My best advice is for you to read the book
Is it really funny then? Because it sounds like a joke.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by candle2, posted 12-04-2022 3:18 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1396 of 1864 (907389)
02-23-2023 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1395 by Phat
02-23-2023 1:53 AM


Re: Evidently Anglicans dont believe in the Trinity
What are you talking about? I think you fail to understand orthodox Christian Doctrine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1395 by Phat, posted 02-23-2023 1:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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