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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7824
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3196 of 3207 (901457)
11-10-2022 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3193 by Phat
11-09-2022 11:25 PM


I am quite sure he does not rely on the supernatural as a source of information. As that would be crazy.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3193 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 11:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5469
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3197 of 3207 (901458)
11-10-2022 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 3193 by Phat
11-09-2022 11:25 PM


The father of lies must have told you that.
But why would AZPaul3 have listened? He is not a creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3193 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 11:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3198 of 3207 (901477)
11-10-2022 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 3194 by Phat
11-09-2022 11:28 PM


Phat writes:
Why should He step up?
Have you lost the plot completely?
I said in Message 3183, "He didn't 'give' His life. It was taken..."
Dredge replied in Message 3190, in a quote from John 10: 17-18, ""For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord."
And I correctly pointed out in Message 3192 that He DIDN'T lay down His own life. When the authorities came for Him, He DIDN'T step up. He waited for Judas to betray Him.
So what the f**k are you talking about? Why SHOULD He step up? If He was voluntarily laying down His life, He WOULD have stepped up. He DIDN't step up, so He DIDN'T lay down His life voluntarily, which is what I've been saying all along.
Phat writes:
That would be admitting that His critics were right.
And they were. Did He not claim to be King of the Jews? Did He not claim to be the Son of God?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3194 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 11:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3199 of 3207 (901478)
11-10-2022 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 3195 by Phat
11-09-2022 11:32 PM


Phat writes:
Why should He give in to them?
Well, YOUR theology claims that He came to save us. YOUR theology claims that He had to die to do that. How could he do that without giving in to the authorities?
Phat writes:
They fabricated lies about Him.
Did He not say He was King of the Jews? Did He not say He was the Son of God?
Phat writes:
He owed them no apology nor need to surrender to demons
Where do demons enter into it at all? Where are they mentioned in the story? According to YOUR OWN theology, why would demons help Jesus to fulfill His mission?
Why are you so enamoured with demons?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3195 by Phat, posted 11-09-2022 11:32 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3200 by dwise1, posted 11-10-2022 12:03 PM ringo has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5469
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3200 of 3207 (901479)
11-10-2022 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3199 by ringo
11-10-2022 11:44 AM


Why are you so enamoured with demons?
In my association with the Jesus Freaks circa 1970, I observed that they were very obsessed with two things:
  1. The End Times (with emphasis on the Rapture and the Beast and AntiChrist)
  2. DEMONS!
For example, when we experience a kind of paralysis when we're in REM sleep -- acting out our dreams physically would be selected against. I'm not sure how many species have that same trait -- I've observed it in our dogs.
Sometimes we're sleeping so lightly during REM that we are aware of our surroundings but still cannot move. Multiple fundamentalists have described to me that experience and they are absolutely convinced that they were being attacked by a demon. Even ones who are very intelligent and educated (well, an electrical engineer, so please just grant me that one).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3199 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3201 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 12:21 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3201 of 3207 (901480)
11-10-2022 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 3200 by dwise1
11-10-2022 12:03 PM


dwise1 writes:
Multiple fundamentalists have described to me that experience and they are absolutely convinced that they were being attacked by a demon.
Reminds me of being "slain in the spirit". A Biblical example would be what happened to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-5}.
According to Wikipedia,
quote:
Sociologist Margaret Poloma has defined slaying in the Spirit as "the power of the Holy Spirit so filling a person with a heightened inner awareness that the body's energy fades away and the person collapses to the floor".
But,
quote:
Not all incidents of falling or swooning in Pentecostal and charismatic churches are attributed to the Holy Spirit. Besides the possibility of fraud, charismatics may also attribute the behavior to demonic activity.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3200 by dwise1, posted 11-10-2022 12:03 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3202 by Phat, posted 11-14-2022 6:24 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3202 of 3207 (901692)
11-14-2022 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3201 by ringo
11-10-2022 12:21 PM


Sleep Paralysis
Wiki has extensive cultural recollections of sleep paralysis---and evil is mentioned in many cultures.the human perception of "evil" was caused by hallucinations.
Wiki writes:
Society and culture
Etymology
A 19th-century version of Füssli's The Nightmare (1781)
The original definition of sleep paralysis was codified by Samuel Johnson in his A Dictionary of the English Language as a nightmare, a term that evolved into our modern definition.
The term was first used and dubbed by British neurologist, S.A.K. Wilson in his 1928 dissertation, The Narcolepsies.[32] Such sleep paralysis was widely considered the work of demons, and more specifically incubi, which were thought to sit on the chests of sleepers. In Old English the name for these beings was mare or mære (from a proto-Germanic *marōn, cf. Old Norse mara), hence comes the mare in the word nightmare. The word might be cognate to Greek Marōn (in the Odyssey) and Sanskrit Māra.
Cultural significance and priming
Le Cauchemar (The Nightmare), by Eugène Thivier (1894)
Although the core features of sleep paralysis (e.g., atonia, a clear sensorium, and frequent hallucinations) appear to be universal, the ways in which they are experienced vary according to time, place, and culture.[9][33]
Over 100 terms have been identified for these experiences.[18] Some scientists have proposed sleep paralysis as an explanation for reports of paranormal and spiritual phenomena such as ghosts,[34][35] alien visits,[36] demons or demonic possession,[9][37] alien abduction experiences,[38][39] the night hag and shadow people haunting.[10][13]
According to some scientists, culture may be a major factor in shaping sleep paralysis.[37] When sleep paralysis is interpreted through a particular cultural filter, it may take on greater salience. For example, if sleep paralysis is feared in a certain culture, this fear could lead to conditioned fear, and thus worsen the experience, in turn leading to higher rates.[9][37] Consistent with this idea, high rates and long durations of immobility during sleep paralysis have been found in Egypt, where there are elaborate beliefs about sleep paralysis, involving malevolent spirit-like creatures, the jinn. [37]
Research has found that sleep paralysis is associated with great fear and fear of impending death in 50% of sufferers in Egypt.[37] A study comparing rates and characteristics of sleep paralysis in Egypt and Denmark found that the phenomenon is three times more common in Egypt versus Denmark.[37] In Denmark, unlike Egypt, there are no elaborate supernatural beliefs about sleep paralysis, and the experience is often interpreted as an odd physiological event, with overall shorter sleep paralysis episodes and fewer people (17%) fearing that they could die from it.[33]
Folklore
The night hag is a generic name for a folkloric creature found in cultures around the world, and which is used to explain the phenomenon of sleep paralysis. A common description is that a person feels a presence of a supernatural malevolent being that immobilizes the person as if standing on the chest.[40] This phenomenon goes by many names.
Cambodia
Sleep paralysis among Cambodians is known as “the ghost pushes you down,”[35] and entails the belief in dangerous visitations from deceased relatives.[35]
Egypt
In Egypt, sleep paralysis is conceptualized as a terrifying jinn attack. The jinn may even kill its victims.[33]
Italy
In the different regions of Italy there are many examples of supernatural beings associated with sleep paralysis. In the regions of Marche and Abruzzo, it is referred to as a Pandafeche attack;[9] the Pandafeche usually refers to an evil witch, sometimes a ghostlike spirit or a terrifying catlike creature, that mounts on the chest of the victim and tries to harm him. The only way to avoid her is to keep a bag of sand or beans close to the bed so that the witch will stop to count how many beans or sand grains are inside it. A similar tradition is present in Sardinian folklore, where the Ammuntadore is known as a creature that mounts on the people's chest during their sleep to give them nightmares, and that can change its shape according to the person's fears. In Northern Italy, specifically in the Tyrol area, the Trud is a witch that sits on the people's chest at night, making them unable to breathe; to chase her away, people should make the sign of the Cross, something that would need a great struggle in a situation of paralysis.[41]
Similar folklore is present in the Sannio area, around the city of Benevento, where the witch is called Janara.[42] In Southern Italy, sleep paralysis is usually explained with the presence of a sprite standing on the people's chest: if the person manages to catch the sprite (or steal his hat), in exchange for his freedom (or to have his hat back) he can reveal the hiding place of a rich treasure; this sprite has different names in different regions of Italy: Monaciello in Campania, Monachicchio in Basilicata, Laurieddhu or Scazzamurill in Apulia, Mazzmuredd in Molise.[42]
Newfoundland
In Newfoundland, sleep paralysis is referred to as the Old Hag,[34][43] and victims of a hagging are said to be hag-ridden upon awakening.[44] Victims report being completely conscious, but unable to speak or move, and report a person or an animal which sits upon their chest.[45] Despite the name, the attacker can be either male or female.[46] Some suggested cures or preventions for the Old Hag include sleeping with a Bible under the pillow,[45] calling the sleeper's name backwards[47] or in an extreme example, sleeping with a shingle or board embedded with nails strapped to the chest.[48] This object was called a Hag Board.[49] The Old Hag is well-enough known in the province to be a pop culture figure, appearing in films and plays[50] as well as in crafted objects.[51]
Nigeria
Nigeria[52] has a myriad interpretation of the cause of SP. This is due to the very diversified culture and belief system that exists there.
United States
Sleep paralysis is sometimes interpreted as space alien abduction in the United States.[53]
Literature
Various forms of magic and spiritual possession were also advanced as causes in literature. In nineteenth-century Europe, the vagaries of diet were thought to be responsible. For example, in Charles Dickens's A Christmas Carol, Ebenezer Scrooge attributes the ghost he sees to "... an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato..." In a similar vein, the Household Cyclopedia (1881) offers the following advice about nightmares:
"Great attention is to be paid to regularity and choice of diet. Intemperance of every kind is hurtful, but nothing is more productive of this disease than drinking bad wine. Of eatables, those which are most prejudicial are all fat and greasy meats and pastry... Moderate exercise contributes in a superior degree to promote the digestion of food and preventing flatulence; those, however, who are necessarily confined to a sedentary occupation, should particularly avoid applying themselves to study or bodily labor immediately after eating... Going to bed before the usual hour is a frequent cause of night-mare, as it either occasions the patient to sleep too long or to lie long awake in the night. Passing a whole night or part of a night without rest likewise gives birth to the disease, as it occasions the patient, on a succeeding night, to sleep too soundly. Indulging in sleep too late in the morning is an almost certain method to bring on the paroxysm, and the more frequently it returns, the greater strength it acquires; the propensity to sleep at this time is almost irresistible."[54]
J. M. Barrie, the author of the Peter Pan stories, may have had sleep paralysis. He said of himself ‘In my early boyhood it was a sheet that tried to choke me in the night.’[55] He also described several incidents in the Peter Pan stories that indicate that he was familiar with an awareness of a loss of muscle tone whilst in a dream-like state. For example, Maimie is asleep but calls out ‘What was that...It is coming nearer! It is feeling your bed with its horns-it is boring for [into] you.[56] and when the Darling children were dreaming of flying, Barrie says ‘Nothing horrid was visible in the air, yet their progress had become slow and labored, exactly as if they were pushing their way through hostile forces. Sometimes they hung in the air until Peter had beaten on it with his fists.’[57] Barrie describes many parasomnias and neurological symptoms in his books and uses them to explore the nature of consciousness from an experiential point of view.[58]
Documentary films
The Nightmare is a 2015 documentary that discusses the causes of sleep paralysis as seen through extensive interviews with participants, and the experiences are re-enacted by professional actors. In synopsis, it proposes that such cultural phenomena as alien abduction, the near-death experience, and shadow people can, in many cases, be attributed to sleep paralysis. The "real-life" horror film debuted at the Sundance Film Festival on January 26, 2015, and premiered in theatres on June 5, 2015.[59]
In fact, I remember one time that I experienced sleep paralysis and I too thought I was being attacked by a demon. The reason was the intense fear that I experienced during the paralysis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3201 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3203 by dwise1, posted 11-14-2022 10:41 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 3204 by ringo, posted 11-14-2022 11:15 AM Phat has replied
 Message 3205 by Stile, posted 11-14-2022 11:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5469
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3203 of 3207 (901707)
11-14-2022 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 3202 by Phat
11-14-2022 6:24 AM


Re: Sleep Paralysis
In fact, I remember one time that I experienced sleep paralysis and I too thought I was being attacked by a demon. The reason was the intense fear that I experienced during the paralysis.
Well, when that happens we're in a dream state. When we're dreaming anything can happen, plus we're much more suggestible then when we're wide awake.
But here again we see the contrast between science and ignorance. With science we can study a phenomenon and be able to figure out what it actually is. With ignorance, we just make up whatever superstitious nonsense happens to pop into our heads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3202 by Phat, posted 11-14-2022 6:24 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3204 of 3207 (901720)
11-14-2022 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 3202 by Phat
11-14-2022 6:24 AM


Re: Sleep Paralysis
Phat writes:
In fact, I remember one time that I experienced sleep paralysis and I too thought I was being attacked by a demon. The reason was the intense fear that I experienced during the paralysis.
So you know what the cause of "demon attacks" is and yet you still believe in literal demons?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3202 by Phat, posted 11-14-2022 6:24 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3206 by Phat, posted 11-14-2022 4:06 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4182
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 3205 of 3207 (901731)
11-14-2022 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 3202 by Phat
11-14-2022 6:24 AM


Re: Sleep Paralysis
Phat writes:
...the human perception of "evil" was caused by hallucinations
I would say it was caused by fear and ignorance.
But the hallucinations would have exasperated the fear and ignorance... so, yeah, kinda the same thing.
In fact, I remember one time that I experienced sleep paralysis and I too thought I was being attacked by a demon. The reason was the intense fear that I experienced during the paralysis.
I'm not sure exactly how to take this statement.
It all relies on the answer to the question: Do you still think a demon was responsible for your sleep paralysis?
The following assumes your answer to that question is "no."
However, if your answer is "yes" - then the following will likely not apply:
Do you understand the analogy this forms?
Phat does not believe demons cause sleep paralysis, even though Phat experienced intense feelings during the event. Phat understands that such feelings can occur because all studies and evidence show that demons are not necessary for such an event.
Many others do believe demons cause sleep paralysis, because they insist that the intense feelings must be because the demon was there and talked to them. If the demon wasn't real, then the feelings wouldn't have been that intense. The situation wouldn't have felt that real. Besides, demons are beings and can avoid being detected by studies and evidence.
Stile does not believe God exists, even though Stile experiences intense feelings as a human. Stile understands that such feelings can occur because all studies and evidence show that God is not necessary for such events.
Many others (including Phat?) do believe God exists, because they insist that the intense feelings must be because God is there and talked to them. If God wasn't real, then the feelings wouldn't have been that intense. The situation wouldn't have felt that real. Besides, God is a being and can avoid being detected by studies and evidence.
Feelings cannot be trusted to form important conclusions about reality. They're just usually wrong about such things.
Things that actively, always avoid detection from studies and evidence... act exactly as if they didn't exist at all.
No need to stop searching, if it floats your boat... you might expand knowledge.
Maybe one day, someone will discover how demons really are behind sleep paralysis. Or perhaps they're just wasting their time, as the evidence shows they are.
Maybe one day, someone will discover how God really does exist. Or perhaps they're just wasting their time, as the evidence shows they are.
Until at least some study or evidence is shown... I know demons do not cause sleep paralysis.
Until at least some study or evidence is shown... I know God does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3202 by Phat, posted 11-14-2022 6:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3206 of 3207 (901793)
11-14-2022 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3204 by ringo
11-14-2022 11:15 AM


Re: Sleep Paralysis
ringo writes:
So you know what the cause of "demon attacks" is and yet you still believe in literal demons?
No, I know the cause of sleep paralysis. If demons were involved, they would only be attacking people that way...which makes no sense. Your problem, OTOH, is that you have eliminated any possible supernatural (unexplained) activity from either the Holy Spirit or the wannabe creations simply due to a lack of evidence.
Plus I suspect that you don't want there to be any sort of alien overlord at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3204 by ringo, posted 11-14-2022 11:15 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3207 by ringo, posted 11-15-2022 11:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3207 of 3207 (901864)
11-15-2022 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3206 by Phat
11-14-2022 4:06 PM


Re: Sleep Paralysis
Phat writes:
I know the cause of sleep paralysis.
You thought it was demons when it happened. Now that you KNOW there is at least one natural cause, why would you still cling to superstition?
Phat writes:
If demons were involved, they would only be attacking people that way...which makes no sense.
Of course it makes no sense. Why would you even think that all "demon attacks" were the same?
Phat writes:
Your problem, OTOH, is that you have eliminated any possible supernatural (unexplained) activity from either the Holy Spirit or the wannabe creations simply due to a lack of evidence.
How is that a problem?
I have also eliminated any possible supernatural activity from explanations of how airplanes fly. No angels blowing on the bottom of the wings. How is that a problem? Far from it, the BENEFIT if eliminating superstition is that we can actually understand what is happening and make airplanes fly better.
Phat writes:
Plus I suspect that you don't want there to be any sort of alien overlord at all.
Who does?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3206 by Phat, posted 11-14-2022 4:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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