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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 593 of 1864 (899415)
10-13-2022 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 590 by candle2
10-13-2022 11:42 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
quote:
Tanyptery, we all know the limits and inaccuracies of
dating.
I doubt that you do. I certainly doubt that you know about all the work that has been done to verify and check our dating methods,
quote:
Basic assumptions used in dating methods are
are just that, assumptions. Wrong assumptions lead to
unreliable data.
Aside from the fact that you don’t understand the word “data” perhaps you would like to explain which assumptions are wrong.
quote:
Don't pretend that you don't know about the unreliability
of dating methods.
We know that they are more than reliable enough to prove that the Earth is billions of years old.
quote:
I know, beyond any doubt, that you and all evolutionists
have these huge doubts.
I know for a fact that we don’t.
quote:
If a dating technique is found to be wrong just once, none
of the results can be trusted
Not if we understand the error and can avoid it. And, of course, if the error underestimates the age, or the error depends on the presence of older material then it can’t cast any doubt on the fact that the Earth is much older than your masters would claim.
quote:
You know this, and I know this. And, you know that I
know this.
Good job that we know better than you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by candle2, posted 10-13-2022 11:42 AM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 626 of 1864 (899520)
10-15-2022 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by candle2
10-15-2022 11:59 AM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
quote:
Dwise 1, in Daniel 2, King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream
about a great image
Indeed, but the interpretation you offer fits poorly with the text of Daniel.
quote:
Verse 40: "And the fourth Kingdom shall be strong as
iron: formasmuch as iron breakest in pieces and
subdues all things: and as iron that breaks all these,
shall it break in pieces and bruise."

Verse 41: "And whereas thou saw the feet and toes,
part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom
shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength
of the iron, formasmuch as thou saw the iron mixed
with Mary clay."

Verse 42: "And as the toes of the feet were part of iron,
and part of clay, so the Kingdom shall be partly strong,
and partly broken."

Verse 44: "And in the days of these kings (10) shall the
God of heaven set up a Kingdom, which shall never be
destroyed:

As is clear from the text of Daniel these verses refer not to the Roman Empire but to the Greek kingdoms formed from the division of Alexander’s Empire. See for instance Daniel 8 - explicitly an End Times prophecy (8:17) and clearly set at the time of those Kingdoms (8:21-23).
I would also point out that confusing the Roman Empire with the (thoroughly misnamed) Holy Roman Empire does you no favours at all. There is no real connection between the two

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by candle2, posted 10-15-2022 11:59 AM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 656 of 1864 (899694)
10-17-2022 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by candle2
10-17-2022 3:44 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
quote:
When dating dead organisms utilizing the Carbon-14
dating method two facts need to be established.

One is the decay rate of C-14.
The other is the starting amount.
That’s not exactly true any more. There have been plenty of measurements of samples where the age has been determined by other methods. So we can use those rather than guessing the starting amount.
quote:
There is no way to determine if the ratio of C-14 to C-12
in the atmosphere has always been the same as it is
today.
Wrong again. We know that it hasn’t.
quote:
When we lack observational knowledge/science, we are
left with historical science.
Good job we have all that observational knowledge then.
You make the mistake of assuming that creationists tell the truth. Maybe you should examine your own assumptions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by candle2, posted 10-17-2022 3:44 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 832 of 1864 (901575)
11-11-2022 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by candle2
11-11-2022 3:45 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Tangle, the Israelites crossed the Red Sea at the Gulf of
Aquaba.
Highly unlikely, the Gulf of Aqaba is too deep.
quote:
The exact sight is at Nuweiba Beach.
It’s been discussed here, and that is really unlikely.
quote:
The location of Mt. Sinai is in Saudi Arabia.
The traditional location fits better.
quote:
The evidence is overwhelming and fits perfectly with
the account in Exodus.
The evidence is really, really underwhelming.
quote:
I would advise everyone to watch the videos and read
the articles about Nuweiba Beach and the Red Sea
Crossing.
Only if you want to laugh at them.
quote:
I have been looking into this for several decades.
Obviously you haven’t been looking very hard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 3:45 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 6:28 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 837 of 1864 (901582)
11-12-2022 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 833 by candle2
11-11-2022 6:28 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, there is no other location that fits the Biblical
description of the Red Sea crossing.
There is no real description of the site, beyond “before Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, opposite Baal Zephon”. These locations are all uncertain, except perhaps Migdol. Even the idea that the text should be translated as meaning the Red Sea is in question. Beyond that, all we can say is that the location is implied to have been flat and level enough for chariots to be a major threat. Nuweiba does not fit that description, and certainly not the actual crossing.
quote:
If you believe there is, then state your location. But, it
won't add up.
If it - or anything like it - ever happened (it probably did not) the most likely site is at or near the former Ballah Lakes (now occupied by the Suez Canal). That is where Migdol was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 6:28 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by candle2, posted 11-12-2022 6:00 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 843 by candle2, posted 11-13-2022 10:11 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 842 of 1864 (901608)
11-13-2022 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 838 by candle2
11-12-2022 6:00 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
The Bible says a good deal about the description of the
route that the Israelites took. I will get to that in another
post. Right now I want to relay what NASA discovered in
1991.
Much of what the Bible says about the route is unclear to modern readers since it relies on place names which are no longer known. Some sites have been identified but the identification is never certain.
quote:
The infrared cameras pinpointed the exact route of the
Exodus. It pinpointed a thin red line from Succoth
through the wilderness of the Red Sea, through the Wadi
Watir, to Nuweiba Beach, on the Gulf of Aquaba.
Quite frankly this makes no sense. Infra red cameras would not show a route that people followed more than 3000 years ago. No matter how many they were.
It looks like the sort of thing that the Weekly World News might make up. Someone just drew a red line on a map and claimed it was what infra red cameras saw. I don’t think that even Ron Wyatt - liar and fraud that he was - would have made that up.
So far your “overwhelming” evidence includes a supposed “description” which does not fit with the Biblical text and this obvious fiction.
After “decades” of investigation you should be able to manage something better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by candle2, posted 11-12-2022 6:00 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 844 of 1864 (901624)
11-13-2022 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 843 by candle2
11-13-2022 10:11 AM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, you are one funny guy. You actually believe that
Moses parted the six inch deep Sea of Reeds and that
when the whole eighty gallons of water returned it
destroyed the entire Egyptian army.

It would have to be reasonably level for the chariots to charge into the parted sea, so it can’t be too deep. I’ll take your 6 inches as mere hyperbole, since obviously things have changed in that region.
quote:
Josephus stated in "Antiquities of the Jews" that besides
the 600 choice chariots that there were an additional
50,000 horse soldiers and 200,000 foot soldiers.

Which is a rather larger army than is plausible. The Egyptians only fielded a maximum of 53,000 troops at the battle of Kadesh, or perhaps as few as 20,000. Josephus, of course was writing more than a thousand years after the event, and without any known sources,
quote:
Isaiah 51:10 "Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the
waters of the Great deep; that hath made the depths of
the Sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?"
And why should we believe Isaiah on this?
Is it not possible that if it was an actual event the story has been greatly magnified?
Let us note, also, that this is the only site that matches the actual description we have from the Bible- since Migdol (as far as we know) is there, and not near Nuweiba.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by candle2, posted 11-13-2022 10:11 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by candle2, posted 11-13-2022 11:18 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 846 of 1864 (901638)
11-13-2022 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 845 by candle2
11-13-2022 11:18 AM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, the Red Sea is more than a mile and a half deep
in many places, with an incline much too deep to permit
travel by foot. In addition the Red Sea is littered with
large boulders and sharp rocks.

The only spot on the Red Sea without these rocky
intrusions is located between Nuweiba Beach and the
Saudi shore, thirteen miles away.
This is misleading at best. The traditional site for crossing the Red Sea is on the Gulf of Suez, with a maximum depth of only 70m. At Nuweiba the maximum depth - which would have to be crossed - is more than 850m. The rest of the Red Sea hardly matters - nobody suggests a crossing anywhere but one of the two Gulfs.
And I very much doubt that you have surveyed the Gulf of Suez to see if the sea floor is clear.
quote:
The Sea between these two points is one-half miles deep.
It is a kind of natural land bridge built up by sand runoff
from both sides of the Sea.
You overestimate the depth - but even the actual depth is sufficient to disqualify it from being a “land bridge”.
quote:
Also look at the wadi watir that leads to Nuweiba Beach.
There are tall rocky mountains on both sides of the watir.

The 250,000 strong Egyptian army was coming up behind
them.

The Israelites were hemmed in by the mountains on the
sides of them, with the Sea in front of them, and the
Egyptian army behind the.

They were angry with Moses; accusing him of bringing
them there to die.
When they have highly defensible terrain where the Egyptian chariots will be useless….
Let us note that Exodus only mentions the 600 chariots - and based on figures for Kadesh we’d expect the rest of the force to be far smaller than Josephus claims (there were likely 2000 Egyptian chariots at Kadesh). Not 250,000 - likely well under 20,000. Which would still be an impressively large army for the time.
quote:
There have been a number of photographers who have
taken underwater photos of coral encrusted chariot
wheels and axles.
Well I keep seeing the same photos and not once have I seen any real evidence that they contain chariot wheels. Indeed, there are claims - from supporters of the idea - that they contain iron which would be quite impossible for Egyptian chariot wheels for the supposed date. I’m also less than convinced that there is more than 3000 years of coral growth there, either.
[ABE]Apparently coral doesn’t grow on wood, which would rule out Egyptian chariot wheels, too.
If the contents are man made objects they could be far more recent. If they contain iron they must be more recent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 845 by candle2, posted 11-13-2022 11:18 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 847 by candle2, posted 11-13-2022 2:58 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 848 of 1864 (901674)
11-13-2022 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 847 by candle2
11-13-2022 2:58 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, what does tradition have to do with this? If the
traditional site does not agree with the Bible then
tradition is not worth a plug nickel.
The point is not to say that tradition is automatically right - the point is to say that the traditional site fits the Bible better than yours. Not that that’s saying much,
quote:
The land between Succoth and the wadi watir is
relatively flat. It would have been relatively easy
for the Egyptians and the chariots to catch the
Israelites.
Wadi Watir flows through rugged hills to get to Nuweiba beach. Chariots are not going to get over those hills.
quote:
Read the incident in Exodus very carefully. God
lead the Israelites in a a route that would make
Pharoah think they were wandering around in
confusion.
I have read it, and probably more carefully than you.
quote:
20,000, not even 50,000 soldiers would have been enough
to defeat the 600,000 men of Israel. The Israelites were
used to hard manual labor. They were not soft.

Exactly why the story makes no sense if you give the Israelites the advantage of a defensible position.
Now, with the devastation supposedly caused by the plagues it’s rather unlikely that the Egyptians could muster 200,000 soldiers for their army. If they even had that many to start with, they’d still have to be recalled from their postings. And if they had, they should have had rather more than 600 chariots.
quote:
I do not know if coral can become encrusted on wood or
not. But many of the wheels were covered with metal,
especially the 600 choice chariots.
Certainly not all of the 600 - a few at most. And remember we have yet to see any evidence that these supposed wheels came from chariots.
quote:
In Exodus 3:12 God told Moses that after Moses had
brought forth the people out of Egypt that they were
to serve Him on that mountain.

Mt. Horeb (Mt. Sinai), was in Saudi Arabia, opposite
side of the Red Sea.
You say that, but Exodus 3 only says that Horeb was “beyond the wilderness” from Jethro’s current location.
quote:
There is a strip along Nuweiba Beach where the sand
and gravel have been fused. God had created a pillar of
fire that kept the Egyptians held back until the Israelites
had passed through the sea
That is not exactly what Exodus says. The pillar of cloud held the Egyptians back in the night, before they happened to cross. If this strip of “fused sand and gravel” were formed by that it would have to leave room for the Israelites. And of course how would we know that it was formed by the angel? Exodus doesn’t mention it,
quote:
If you looked at the wadi watir and Nuweiba Beach and
still cannot understand how the Israelites would have
felt hemmed in, then the problem of perception lies with
you
Exodus doesn’t say that the Israelites felt hemmed in. So all you are doing is admitting that the site is unsuitable for the Egyptian attack. And very suitable for an Israelite defence, which hardly fits the story. The Israelites weren’t dismayed by feeling hemmed in, they were dismayed by the threat of the Egyptian attack.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by candle2, posted 11-13-2022 2:58 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 849 by candle2, posted 11-14-2022 8:09 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 850 of 1864 (901694)
11-14-2022 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 849 by candle2
11-14-2022 8:09 AM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, the NIV states that the Israelites were hemmed in.
Not exactly. The point is that the Israelites turned around from crossing the wilderness and were trapped in Egypt.
quote:
The marshlands of Sinai have never been referred to as
the "Great Deep." You are being deliberately deceptive
because you know this is true.
And Exodus 14 never uses that phrase.
quote:
There would have been no need to part the wee little tiny
water in the marshland. The chariots would have become
bogged down and rendered worthless.
Or so you assume. Nevertheless the only location we have for Migdol is there.
quote:
The chariots of Pharoah could have traveled through the
the wadi watir.
Which is narrow, and therefore easily obstructed. Not ideal for a chariot attack.
quote:
There is no evidence of any kind that the Egyptians
drowned in the shallow marshlands of the Sea of Reeds.
There isn’t exactly a lot of evidence that they drowned at all. And the allegedl chariot wheels are Nuweiba are not much better than nothing (the more so since what evidence the Wyatt camp have let out suggests that they are much later in date)
quote:
There is no evidence of any kind that Mt. Sinai was in the
Peninsula
I suspect that is untrue. And I have yet to see any that reliably places it in Saudi Arabia.
quote:
As Isaiah clearly states: the Egyptians drowned in the great
deep. And there is evidence of this. Ron White is not the
only individual who has offered proof
And how many of them are from the Wyatt camp?
quote:
You dismiss the verses that you don't like, or that you don't
agree with.
Isaiah was written centuries after the supposed events. Why think that the author had any special knowledge.
So when do we get to see this “overwhelming” evidence you claimed to have?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 849 by candle2, posted 11-14-2022 8:09 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 851 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 1:04 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 852 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 1:10 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 854 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 3:32 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 858 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 3:58 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 859 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 4:08 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 861 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 4:20 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 864 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 4:50 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 866 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 5:12 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 867 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 7:32 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 853 of 1864 (901970)
11-16-2022 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 852 by candle2
11-16-2022 1:10 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, let's look at two Biblical versions of Psalms 77:19.
That’s not going to be a very reliable source, is it?
quote:
"Your path led through the sea, your way through the
waters, though your footprints were not seen."
"Your road led through the sea, your pathway through
The mighty waters, a pathways one knew was there."

I wouldn’t describe the alleged “crossing” at Nuweiba as a “path” or “road”. It’s pretty steep terrain. Which is an issue you haven’t dealt with.
quote:
Photos from both sides (Egypt and Saudi Arabia)of the
underwater pathway clearly show coral encrusted chariot
wheels; axles; chariot frames; horse bones; and, human
bones.
None of the photos I’ve been shown qualify.
quote:
There are even photos of a golden chariot wheel. Corals
don't attach to gold. Could this have been from the
Pharoah's own chariot?
I have seen that photo and I’m pretty sure it’s a brass fitting off a steamship, And almost certainly planted at the site by Ron Wyatt.
quote:
Exodus 14:3 states that the Israelites had become
entangled in the land. The wilderness had shut them in.
Because they turned back to Egypt rather than crossing the wilderness. You really should read it in context.
quote:
The only place that could have shut them in was
Nuweiba Beach.

Obviously not.
quote:
You deny that Isaiah had special knowledge of the Red Sea
crossing.
Obviously if he was writing hundreds of years after the event there is no reason to think he had special knowledge.
quote:
If you don't believe some of the Bible, why believe any of it?
I treat the Bible as a collection of historical documents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 852 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 1:10 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 855 of 1864 (901990)
11-16-2022 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by candle2
11-16-2022 3:32 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, Exodus 18:1 "When Jethro, the priest of Midian,
and Moses' father in law, heard of all God had done for
Moses, and for Israel his people, and that the Lord had
brought Israel out of Egypt;"

Jethro lived in Saudi Arabia. The residents of the area
still honor him as one of their own.
And yet - after the departure from Egypt - we are only told that Jethro met Moses in the wilderness and afterwards returned to his own land. We aren’t told that the Israelites wandered through Midian, or met Jethro there. Sounds like a bit of a clue that the. Israelites weren’t passing through the territory now called Saudi Arabia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 3:32 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 857 of 1864 (901992)
11-16-2022 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 856 by candle2
11-16-2022 3:41 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, Exodus 15:27 "And they came to Elim, where
twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm
trees,: and they credit there by the water."

The twelve wells at Elim, in SA, are still there. So are
many palm trees.

Sounds like Oyun Musa - but that is in Egypt. Want to say why your site is the correct one, given that names are uncertain evidence - as you admit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 3:41 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 860 of 1864 (902003)
11-16-2022 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 858 by candle2
11-16-2022 3:58 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, Exodus 19:18 "And Mount Sinai was altogether on
a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and
the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace,
and the whole mount quaked greatly."

The top of Mount Sinai (Jabal al Lawz) is black. No other
mountain in the area are.

When the rocks are turned over, the undersides are brown
The dark colour of the rocks at Jabal Maqla- which is the mountain you refer to - is due to a layer of darker rock (hornfels, rather than the paler granite beneath). It’s not the result of any event in the last few thousand years. Odd that your “decades” of research hadn’t found that out.
If you have “overwhelming evidence” why are you wasting time with stuff like this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 3:58 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 862 of 1864 (902012)
11-16-2022 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 859 by candle2
11-16-2022 4:08 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
You’re seriously arguing that the presence of a cave is significant evidence? And yes, the traditional location has caves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by candle2, posted 11-16-2022 4:08 PM candle2 has not replied

  
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