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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1176 of 3694 (900663)
10-30-2022 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1033 by GDR
10-19-2022 6:36 PM


Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
GDR writes:
As I have said to Percy several times. all I have for evidence is the Bible, and to a lesser degree other holy books. (There is no evidence that points to the accuracy of any of the accounts in those books. It is belief.)
You have evidence in the Bible but no evidence it is accurate? What would you say about a researcher who said this:
"All I have for evidence is my data, but there is nothing to indicate my data is accurate. I only believe it is accurate."
How strong a case do you think this researcher has for having discovered something likely true about the real world? He has nothing, right? Well, that's what you have.
I do believe that the resurrection was an historical event based on the Bible, and for the fact that Jesus was, instead of being rejected as a failed messiah as what happened in all of the other messianic movements, was accepted and revered by the early church. There is no other evidence to collaborate the accounts.
Paul created the Christian church by evangelizing about Jesus in the Jewish diaspora. None of those who joined his churches or even wrote about Jesus had even seen or heard him, let alone met him.
A common literary device of the time was something of the form, "All these things I'm telling you are true." Luke used it:
Luke 1:3-4:
3With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke provides a good example right in the beginning of the lack of evidence pervading all of Biblical scholarship. Luke begins by naming Herod, a figure of well established historicity, but then goes on in 1:9 to describe how Zechariah, a priest of the temple, was "chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense." Zechariah was alone. Luke then describes in 1:11 how "an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense." Luke tells us the angel was Gabriel.
There could only have been only a single witness to this event, Zechariah, but he was rendered speechless until the day of his prophesized son's birth. How convenient that he only gets to tell the other husbands of his village of the prophecy after the fact. And how could Luke know about Zechariah's vision, including what appears to be every word Gabriel said. If we presume Luke or his community didn't make the story up out of whole cloth then the story was passed orally down through the decades. Do you see an ounce of real evidence in any part of this?
Luke continues on in the same manner, the next part describing in detail Gabriel's appearance to Mary who, just like Zechariah, was the sole witness.
That and my rejection of the belief that consciousness, morality and sentience can come from mindless particles.
Your entire body is made up of "mindless particles". Obviously consciousness, morality and sentience have no trouble coming from "mindless particles".
I realize that we can see it working its way through societies but that does nothing to answer the question of whether or not that is happening because of a pre-existing intelligence or not. That too is belief without evidence.
What is "it" in this paragraph? Whatever "it" is, you are correct that your beliefs are not backed by objective evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by GDR, posted 10-19-2022 6:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1227 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 9:42 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1232 of 3694 (900841)
11-01-2022 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1034 by GDR
10-19-2022 6:52 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
If I am worshipping a god that that does not represent the actual nature of God, Allah, Yahweh or whatever then so be it.
I'm sure you've chosen the right God.
There are hundreds, probably even thousands depending upon your criteria, of religions. It isn't possible that they're all wrong, right? Certainly at least one of them, or at least some combination of parts of some of them, is right. Right? And some guy from British Columbia has as good a chance as anyone of figuring it all out, right?
Look, all that matters is that you're happy with the choices you've made. Don't let it get all mixed up with convincing other people that they're correct. Why does that even matter to you?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by GDR, posted 10-19-2022 6:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1234 by Phat, posted 11-01-2022 11:30 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1289 by GDR, posted 11-04-2022 5:54 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1247 of 3694 (900923)
11-02-2022 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1037 by GDR
10-20-2022 12:38 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
ringo writes:
Why wouldn't you?
Because it wasn't meant to be taken literally. Besides, just how do you fuel an everlasting fire or for that matter survive in one?
Why are you harboring doubts that the God you've expressed belief in can fuel an everlasting fire? And it isn't people who bodily go to heaven or hell. It is souls. Jesus is the only person ever taken bodily into heaven. Of course the Bible equivocates quite a bit, so there's lots of room for interpretation.
ringo writes:
What is there to indicate that it's a parable?
I think you can probably work that out for yourself.
This is your gig. We have no secret powers for divining how you might answer. Please answer the question instead of being evasive.
ringo writes:
No. Because the idea of "choosing" hell is idiotic.
Read "The Great Divorce".
Please do not hand out reading assignments. Answer the question. From the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
And you don't even provide a link.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by GDR, posted 10-20-2022 12:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1295 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 1:30 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1291 of 3694 (901122)
11-05-2022 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1038 by GDR
10-20-2022 12:49 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
By the definition of worship you provided earlier, I worship nothing. But I value food and water, shelter, family, friends, work and recreation, pretty much in that order. Private bathrooms rank pretty high, too. Oh, and hot showers.
I guess people can draw their own conclusions about that.
Yes, I suppose they will. That's why this is a public forum.
But it was addressed to you. You quoted Dylan's "ya gotta serve somebody" and insisted that worship was the only alternative, either of a God or something material. And as a way of pointing out that you're wrong I used myself as an example of someone who worships nothing, and of course I'm by no means alone in this. There are things that I value, but nothing that I worship. Obviously one doesn't have to worship something. You have no response?
Percy writes:
This is circular. Unless you're making stuff up about Jesus or listening to what other people make up, the only things you can "see" in Jesus come from the Bible.
I can also see that if His message of sacrificial love was applied to the world we would all be living far better lives as affirmation.
This is a non-answer. It is still circular to say that the portions of the Bible you choose are based on what you see in Jesus who you only know about from the Bible. Unless, as I said, you're making stuff up about Jesus or listening to what other people make up.
This isn't really a discussion. It's you making non-sequiturs, us pointing them out, and you ignoring them to continue repeating what you've been saying all along. Nothing we say seems to have any effect on you. It doesn't matter what we say, you just keep repeating yourself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1038 by GDR, posted 10-20-2022 12:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:12 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1339 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:00 PM Percy has replied
 Message 1432 by GDR, posted 11-25-2022 8:04 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1306 of 3694 (901214)
11-06-2022 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1042 by GDR
10-20-2022 4:55 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
I could reply to a lot more in this post, but I'll just reply to this portion:
GDR writes:
You guys sit around congratulating each other for your atheistic beliefs but my beliefs are bollox, embarrassing, wasteful and irrelevant.
If you guys want this forum to be an atheistic forum where you can sit around congratulating yourselves for not falling for all that religious nonsense then let me know and I'll be out of your hair with my drivel.
It isn't that your beliefs are "bollox, embarrassing, wasteful and irrelevant." It's your promotion and defense of your beliefs that has these qualities. If you have substance then let's hear it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by GDR, posted 10-20-2022 4:55 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1316 of 3694 (901283)
11-08-2022 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1043 by GDR
10-20-2022 5:12 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
...
Tony did say something that I particularly relate to. He said on page 102:
quote:
As I see it, the Gospel writers were not as interested in the details of Jesus' life as they were in the truth of it. Like their Old Testament counterparts, they carefully constructed their stories to give their readers insights about the meaning and purpose of life. To ask if this or that really happened the way it's described is to miss the point. What matters isn't whether each of those accounts is scrupulously accurate and consistent with all the others. WHAT MATTERS IS WHAT THEY COLLECTIVELY REVEAL ABOUT THE NATURE OF GOD.
What matters is that where they didn't have details, which was everywhere, they made things up. What that reveals about the nature of their God is that they constructed him themselves by making up stories that communicated the message they wanted people to accept about their God.
This is what all people do who build new religions, whether it was 5000 years ago or today. There's never been any there there for any of them, but for some reason you believe that just this one religion that happens to be the one you believe in was special. The miraculous and/or incredible tales it tells were about something real and true. That you believe this tells us a lot about you and absolutely nothing about anything supernatural.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1043 by GDR, posted 10-20-2022 5:12 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1317 by Phat, posted 11-08-2022 11:50 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1319 of 3694 (901315)
11-08-2022 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by GDR
10-20-2022 8:09 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
You guys make my case. My case was that most of you use mockery, put downs, insults etc. as a form of debate. IMHO that is usually an indication of a weak position.
When people treat baseless propositions as they deserve, that does not somehow grant them substance.
Here's you: "There are fairies living under the elderberries." "That's dumb." "You make my case."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by GDR, posted 10-20-2022 8:09 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1333 of 3694 (901400)
11-09-2022 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1050 by GDR
10-20-2022 8:21 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
...the highly unlikely chance of it all evolving from a mindless cause...
It's as if you never heard of the infinite regression. If building a mind requires a mind to build it, where did the prior mind come from? And the mind before that that built that one. And so on and so on.
Most of your energy seems to go toward thinking of ways to ignore key and obvious points.
The reason this thread draws attention is because you keep raising obviously wrong or easily rebutted points where few can resist responding, and since there are a limited number of these points you keep raising them over and over again as if no one hadn't already heard them many times. It isn't because you've raised any points worth a tuppence. It isn't like we're all in a dither over how to respond about Tacitus or whatever.
You've gone off in your chosen direction because it feels right to you, not because evidence drove you that way. Baseless conclusions can and should be dismissed without comment, except perhaps to note the lack of evidence. And you can't drastically lower the bar for what constitutes evidence.
Believe whatever you want to believe. Nobody will care until you begin claiming you have evidence for beliefs that never had evidence in the first place.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1050 by GDR, posted 10-20-2022 8:21 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1353 by Phat, posted 11-10-2022 6:24 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1346 of 3694 (901485)
11-10-2022 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1050 by GDR
10-20-2022 8:21 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
...but I don't see the need to argue it using insults.
Nor to argue it using evidence, either, apparently, and your determined efforts at finding ways to make lack of evidence seem like evidence have come to seem increasingly unprincipled.
I know I've said this several times already in this thread, but this approach is bound to increase frustrations. It is simple human nature to begin employing "slapping up side of the head" style responses to someone working so hard to just not get it. Your need to believe is so strong it has overcome your reason, and it drives the people you're discussing with crazy after a while.
We know you want to believe these things. We get it. But your beliefs come from within, not from evidence. Your refusal to face this fact head on, indeed your insistence on flip-flopping back and forth between "I have evidence" and "I don't have evidence," just feels dishonest and disrespectful.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1050 by GDR, posted 10-20-2022 8:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1347 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 5:00 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1356 of 3694 (901552)
11-11-2022 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1069 by GDR
10-21-2022 5:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I have read many books on both sides of the argument about resurrection and I have come to the conclusion that without the resurrection Jesus would have been a failed messiah like about a dozen others.
Without the gold plates Mormonism is just another failed religion. Why don't you read a lot of books about Mormonism and draw your conclusions. They'll have just as much merit as your conclusions about Jesus. If you happen to conclude, "What a bunch of malarkey!" then keep in mind the equivalence.
I know that's not enough for you guys but so be it.
It's not enough for anyone. Piling your fictions bigger and higher doesn't turn them into truths.
Trump's success at convincing around 70 million people that the 2020 election was stolen makes crystal clear how easy it is to convince human beings of falsities. I desperately do not want to accept that hot fudge Sundaes are not good for you, and I'm incredibly receptive to claims of evidence showing how healthy they actually are, but that doesn't change reality.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by GDR, posted 10-21-2022 5:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1543 by GDR, posted 12-08-2022 8:38 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1362 of 3694 (901639)
11-13-2022 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1071 by GDR
10-21-2022 5:58 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
So why do you place so great an emphasis on a need to worship something? You cannot fail to be aware that many do not feel this need. Whey do you think you and others like you are different?
I don't see that I ever saw it as a need.
I think we can all understand simple English. You said in Message 966:
GDR in Message 966 writes:
Fair enough but as Bob Dylan penned "ya gotta serve somebody". You can worship God, Buddah Mohammed etc, or you can even choose power, money, sex status etc.
You're pretty unambiguously saying that everyone has to worship something. You're impossible to discuss with. You forget and often contradict anything you said that wasn't in the last few messages. What you actually seem to believe is only what you happen to remember recently saying.
Percy writes:
And what has this to do with what we were discussing? You said you pick and choose from the Bible based upon what you see in Jesus, and I pointed out the circularity. Your turn. To say something germane, that is.
I think the rest of what I wrote was germane and you only copied hat was kind of a throw away remark.
I was responding to your two sentence response in Message 1038. There was no "rest of what you wrote," just those two sentences. I left nothing out. I quoted it all.
If you don't have time to reply then don't reply. Don't just dash off stuff that makes no sense and forgets what was actually said.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1071 by GDR, posted 10-21-2022 5:58 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1368 of 3694 (901933)
11-15-2022 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1093 by GDR
10-23-2022 7:22 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
The Golden Rule doesn't belong to religion. It belongs to everyone.
I agree, which IMHO is evidence of a deity that wants this to be a fundamental property of humanity.
But you're seeking to support your opinions with evidence, so you can't just keep repeating "IMHO".
Percy writes:
Truth? You mean the kind of truth that has evidence?
Truth is still truth with or without evidence.
There is no way to tell truth from fiction without evidence.
It is simply that we won't agree much of the time even when there is evidence, let alone when there isn't.
You won't know if that's true until you present some evidence.
Percy writes:
Something you can't prove, i.e., cannot provide evidence for, is your truth? That isn't much of a truth, is it? Isn't it just an unevidenced belief?
You agreed that the Bible, (along with other holy books) is evidence,...
No, I never agreed the Bible is evidence of anything you're seeking evidence for. Just for one example, you argued that the many witnesses of the resurrected Jesus constituted evidence that he was real, and I pointed out that wasn't true. It was just stories claiming there were many witnesses. See Message 939.
Over and over again people here have shown how your claims of evidence are mistaken. No one, especially me, ever agreed the Bible is evidence.
...although it doesn't come close to constituting a proof.
To me proof is a mathematical concept, so it's impossible I'd ever add a disclaimer like this.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1093 by GDR, posted 10-23-2022 7:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1372 by GDR, posted 11-18-2022 8:02 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1369 of 3694 (902107)
11-17-2022 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1167 by GDR
10-29-2022 7:17 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
You agreed the Bible was evidence...
I have no idea why you keep saying something so obviously untrue. I know I've fallen behind in the discussion, but I've been consistently unambiguous in stating that the Bible is not evidence, at least not for the types of things you want it to be evidence for, like miracles and the existence of Jesus. Perhaps you're thinking of things I've said along the lines of something I said in Message 729:
Me in Message 729:
But they're not evidence because they're just stuff people wrote, not observations. Many religious books do contain legitimate observations in passing, such as of cities and kings and so forth, and since massive amounts of observational evidence exists of Jerusalem and Mecca and Sennacherib and so forth we accept this evidence. But there's every reason to reject as observational evidence the writings that Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha all healed the sick. This is just the standard claims that all religions makes and that we're all familiar with.

Even today faith healers abound, and they're all charlatans. Why do you believe 2000-year-old faith healing was real, especially since it was a time when many more people than today were susceptible to such foolery.

Anyone who catches a virus can pray that it will go away and their prayers will be answered the vast majority of the time, if that's the way they'd like to see it, but make the medical issue a bit more serious and see how often prayers are answered. Isn't it strange that the effectiveness of prayer depends upon the seriousness of the medical problem. Prayer remedies a cold every time, but type 1 diabetes, cystic fibrosis and amputation never.
Maybe you're misinterpreting the above, and so just make it very clear let me unequivocally state that the above is saying that holy books like the Bible are not evidence of the kind of miraculous claptrap that religion is so extremely well known for. I should never again have to read you claiming that I agree the Bible is evidence in a way that implies evidence of anything miraculous. Evidence of cities, kings, ways of life, sure. Evidence of miracles and miraculous people, no.
Others have said that the Bible isn't evidence which makes no sense but that doesn't seem to matter.
I have no idea why you're not including me with everyone else who says the Bible is not evidence.
Give me the definition you want for "evidence" and I'll go with it.
We could attempt a formal definition of evidence, but I don't think that's necessary for this discussion. All we need to say about evidence is that it is anything observed using one or more of the five senses.
Percy writes:
What you know is that you have a truth that works for you, and I'm asking what more is it that you're seeking here, because if you're looking for agreement that your thinking is rational and evidence-based then you won't find it here. And EvC is not atypical when it comes to rational thinking.
What does it take to be rational and evidence based because I haven't been able to see a lot of consistency in the various posts in this thread?
First you want a definition of evidence, then you claim inconsistency in the way people are treating rationality and evidence. Sending discussions down unnecessary ratholes of word definitions is a common approach to bringing constructive discussion to a halt. I'm pretty sure we all know what rationality and evidence are, except for you. You seem to think rational thinking includes paragraphs that begin with "IMHO," and you've opened up the door to evidence for not just things observed but even claims of claims of things observed.
Percy writes:
And since you believe both good and bad things are evidence of God, why do you always list only good things? Why not just say, "Mass shootings, poverty, disease, earthquakes and hurricanes, to name only a few, are evidence of God?" You claimed that the ability to make a choice between good and evil was God-given and therefore evidence of God, but who chooses between life and being randomly shot dead, between health and disease, between solid ground and an earthquake, between calm and a hurricane?
I agree, that is a difficult question for Christians.
To claim that both health and plague (for example) are evidence of God is a problem for you, not for Christians in general. The traditional Christian answer is that the place human suffering has in God's plan is a mystery (though possible answers are often mentioned). Your answer is that plague is evidence of God because it represents (you irrationally argue) a choice.
I see God in those who genuinely want to see the world a better place, and respond to all of those things you mention with acts of kindness, mercy, love etc.
You're changing your answer again to stress only the good things. To be true to what you said in previous posts you would have to argue that you see God in those who genuinely want to see the world either a better or worse place, and respond to all those things mentioned with acts of kindness, cruelty, mercy, malevolence, love, hate, etc.
You said you could use the bad as evidence for God as easily as the good, but all you've done so far is demonstrate your inability to do this.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by GDR, posted 10-29-2022 7:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1370 of 3694 (902108)
11-17-2022 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1168 by GDR
10-29-2022 7:25 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
The evolutionary basis for altruism is well established. There is a great deal of research: Google Scholar: evolution altruism
Maybe instead of sending me to a site with a massive set of links to other sites you could explain in your words how it happened.
You misunderstand. My intention was to *avoid* diverting discussion onto an evolutionary topic. I only wanted to make clear that the study of the evolutionary origins of altruism has a deep and rich history. You acknowledged the "massive set of links" on the subject, and that's all I hoped to accomplish. We should no longer have to hear you argue that evolution has no answers for altruism.
Also of course it doesn't really matter anyway as your position assumes that the evolutionary process has nothing but mindless origins, which as you know I don't accept.
Your rejection of the mindlessness of natural processes is just another of your IMHO's. You have no arguments for this position that have evidence or make sense.
All processes we know of are mindless. Whether a process is quantum, nuclear or chemical, it would take place whether we were here or not. Salt added to water dissolves to form sodium and chlorine ions, whether or not any humans were involved. This is true of every natural process.
It's especially true of evolution. The reproductive stage of life (which for bisexual species is when gametes form and later combine) is when most evolutionary change takes place. The process is mindless. Selection is also mindless. You will not be able to identify any way in which the processes of descent and selection require intelligence.
Observing altruism as part of the evolutionary process works just as well for my belief is an evolutionary process is the result of an intelligence that is outside of our time and space.
Concerning an intelligence outside of space and time, you have no evidence, not a whit. Your argument, "But altruism," is answered by the large amount of research done on the evolutionary origins of altruism. Saying "I don't accept that" is a position statement, not an argument, not evidence, and not rational to think it is.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1168 by GDR, posted 10-29-2022 7:25 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1371 of 3694 (902147)
11-18-2022 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1213 by GDR
10-31-2022 1:57 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Not really. For example if we look at the rise of empathy and altruism, or even consciousness, you and others claim scientific evidence. Yes, you can observe it happening but that still doesn't tell why it happened.
Your "why" is asking for supernatural answers, and there's no evidence for the supernatural. Why did the bridge collapse when it did with the accompanying innocent deaths? You look to God for your "why". But there is no sign of the supernatural when the bridge is examined, only corroded bolts or cables and such.
This leaves people such as yourself, as religious people have for millennia, looking to the outer regions of scientific knowledge where what we know is most recent and hence least certain. This is why you're focusing on behavioral aspects whose origins are more difficult to nail down, and where popular understanding is least likely. A few thousand years ago the religious focus was on things like lightning.
That said, let's assume that science can actually come up with how consciousness evolved in the same manner that science has demonstrated physical evolution to be a reality. That still doesn't give an explanation of what the impetus was for its evolution.
Differential reproductive success is still the explanation, as it has been for over a century. I first told you this over a couple months ago in Message 380, and again and again in subsequent posts, yet here you are yet again pretending no one has any idea what drives evolution.
Christ Barrigar, like you, is searching for meaning. If he asked why the bridge collapsed he wouldn't be interested in the nuts and bolts but in where it fits into God's plan, just as are you. But there's no evidence for your supernatural causes. No cause has ever been traced to the supernatural. So the religious seek unknown causes and assign them to God without evidence.
Percy writes:
God as a meme. I think you've got it.
I think we have a very different idea of what the means.
Yes? And what do you think it means?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1213 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 1:57 PM GDR has not replied

  
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