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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1275 of 3694 (900993)
11-03-2022 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1269 by Theodoric
11-03-2022 10:45 AM


Re: Theodoric rushes in to discredit Stobel
Theodoric writes:
All you have are personal attacks, how about making an argument supporting Strobel or showing he has some sort of credentials to actually make a valid argument?
Personal attacks? You started it by attcking Strobel. And I have not attacked either you or Tangle. I merely called out the skeptics you provided who earn a nice living off of trashing Christianity. As far as credentials go, what sort of credentials would you imagine are needed to defend a faith?
This isnt my first rodeo. I have examined arguments and counter-arguments over the years. You likely have also. I will admit bias in favor of arguments supporting belief but would argue that many of you are biased against Christianity solely because of the Right Wing and their politicizing of Christianity back when Falwell started the Moral Majority and continuing to this day. Thus we are both biased to a degree.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1269 by Theodoric, posted 11-03-2022 10:45 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1285 by Theodoric, posted 11-03-2022 9:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1276 of 3694 (900994)
11-03-2022 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1273 by ringo
11-03-2022 11:56 AM


Minions And The People Who Love Them
ringo writes:
If there was a Satan, and if he had minions, they would be believers.
I agree that many of the minionswould feast as parasites upon believers but not exclusively. Satan knows he needs to discredit the church and what better way than from within? Satan also knows that all he needs to do with the secukar world is to dekude them into thinking that all progressive ideas are good ones.
The devil is in the details.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1273 by ringo, posted 11-03-2022 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1288 by ringo, posted 11-04-2022 11:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1278 of 3694 (901008)
11-03-2022 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1277 by Stile
11-03-2022 3:08 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Stile writes:
Which do you think is closer to "absolute truth?"
-the one who thinks they can define it and know it completely and can't be wrong?
-the skeptic who thinks it's unknowable, but willing to admit when they're proven wrong about it?
In your analogy, the 2nd one would be closer.
But allow me to redefine the first example.
--the one who believes they have met Him and believe in Communion spiritually with Him and yet are NOT Him and don't know it all. In which case, we both can be right.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by Stile, posted 11-03-2022 3:08 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1280 by Stile, posted 11-03-2022 3:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1286 of 3694 (901063)
11-04-2022 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1285 by Theodoric
11-03-2022 9:09 PM


Re: Theodoric rushes in to discredit Stobel
Theo writes:
Crawl back under your rock.
Care to join me? Its a really BIG rock.
Matt 7:24-27 NIV writes:
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
So you can either build your house on the rock...or bury your head in the sand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1285 by Theodoric, posted 11-03-2022 9:09 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1292 of 3694 (901127)
11-05-2022 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1291 by Percy
11-05-2022 7:48 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Admittedly the idea that Jesus is limited to a character In a book is not a part of my belief and I will ignore it repeatedly. Belief can and does go beyond evidence without being totally irrational.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by Percy, posted 11-05-2022 7:48 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1293 by Theodoric, posted 11-05-2022 12:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1317 of 3694 (901310)
11-08-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1316 by Percy
11-08-2022 7:16 AM


The Star Trek Generation
Percy, I remember years ago when I made up the phrase, "Where we see Monsters, Science shows us Windmills. " You applauded it and told me my mind was singing, IIRC. You are a critical thinker bound by logic, reason, reality (as we know it), and objective evidence. I am aware of, yet never limited by these parameters. You would say that I engage in fanciful thinking, preferring what I want to happen versus what actually happens.
Consider Star Trek. Humans had put many of their racial differences, ethnic prejudices, and competition among nations behind them to form the United Federation of Planets, joining with a few allies and like-minded species (similar to humanoids) and having created an effective traveling incubator(a starship) to boldly go where no man has gone before.
My point is this: In that series, the humans aboard that starship encountered numerous beings, creatures, and forces every bit as imagined (by the writers) as anything in any Bible Story. Sci-Fi buffs, in fact, would be more likely to believe those characters as real than they would Biblical stories of other gods and demonic manifestations. I, in contrast, (and based on my experience in life) would be much more likely to stick with the Biblical narrative in popular apologetic culture. Humans are far from ready to venture outside our world and explore. We have too much-unopened mail and baggage from within our own species...which will take us a hundred years to resolve fully.
Percy writes:
What matters is that where they didn't have details, which was everywhere, they made things up. What that reveals about the nature of their God is that they constructed him themselves by making up stories that communicated the message they wanted people to accept about their God.
This would make sense if there actually were no God. Otherwise it falls flat.
Percy writes:
There's never been any there for any of them, but for some reason you believe that just this one religion that happens to be the one you believe in was special. The miraculous and/or incredible tales it tells were about something real and true.
Are you saying that it is highly improbable that *any* are/were true? Or are you saying that it is unlikely that the one GDR and I happen to believe in itself highly unlikely. I suspect that this critically thinking generation is gullible enough to get fooled by a fake force that had evidence to support it and also told the masses everything their itching ears resonated with.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1316 by Percy, posted 11-08-2022 7:16 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1318 by ringo, posted 11-08-2022 12:11 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1471 by Percy, posted 11-30-2022 12:55 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1320 of 3694 (901334)
11-08-2022 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
08-29-2022 1:05 PM


Re: Practcing The Art Of Discussion
Growing up does not mean rejecting the belief as if it is a made up fantasy. Growing up means seeing God(and Jesus as more than simply characters in a book.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 1:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1335 by ringo, posted 11-09-2022 2:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1321 of 3694 (901335)
11-08-2022 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
08-29-2022 1:17 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
ringo writes:
In Phat-world, only Evangelicals are "real Christians" - and not necessarily all evangelicals, either. It's like Faith-math, where there are "millions and millions" of Christians in the world when it's convenient to have a majority - but on actual individual issues, the only "real Christians" are the other five people in the same pew with her.
It is a fact that not everyone who professes faith possesses faith.
Its likely that you would judge real Christians solely on their willingness to give everything up...houses, cars, and bank accounts included. And before you say a word, yes, I realize that Jesus set that standard, but what *you* don't realize is that Jesus is more than a lawgiving character in a book. He relates to each of us where we are.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 1:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1336 by ringo, posted 11-09-2022 2:36 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1322 of 3694 (901337)
11-08-2022 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
08-29-2022 1:49 PM


Evidence Unplugged
ringo, replying to GDR writes:
But all too often believers DO disregard reality. Phat, for example, says that believers don't "need" evidence.

Not "needing" evidence is just an excuse for denying evidence.
In matters of supernatural manifestations and healing, the only evidence that survives 2000 years is ongoing reports of witness statements. Granted, you will say its a bit like the game of telephone, where the story changes so much that the point is lost, but I would argue that stories with this much importance are preserved remarkably well. Ask the editors of the various Bibles. They had copies of original manuscripts in which the meaning changed so little as to be negligible.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 1:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1325 by Theodoric, posted 11-08-2022 4:18 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1337 by ringo, posted 11-09-2022 2:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1323 of 3694 (901340)
11-08-2022 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
08-30-2022 11:40 AM


Re: Making It All Up
ringo writes:
They(the authors of scripture) made up a God that YOU don't want.
Nonsense. I can read a Bible as well as anybody, and have no ax to grind, unlike the mythicists. And as for Satan being God's minion, I will agree that he was the tempter...which is a bit like tempering iron to become steel.(stronger) Satan's basic job according to Job is to make us tougher and separate the contenders from the pretenders.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 08-30-2022 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1326 by Theodoric, posted 11-08-2022 4:22 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1338 by ringo, posted 11-09-2022 2:54 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1324 of 3694 (901343)
11-08-2022 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
08-30-2022 11:47 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
ringo writes:
With "God" there is nothing resembling universal agreement about what He said - nor even universal agreement that He said anything.
I will address this in my upcoming post with dwise1. Our worthy apologist, Dr. Peter Kreeft, has something to say along these lines.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 08-30-2022 11:47 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1327 of 3694 (901369)
11-08-2022 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1325 by Theodoric
11-08-2022 4:18 PM


Re: Evidence Unplugged
Note I said Copies.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1325 by Theodoric, posted 11-08-2022 4:18 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1328 by Theodoric, posted 11-08-2022 5:30 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1329 of 3694 (901375)
11-08-2022 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1328 by Theodoric
11-08-2022 5:30 PM


Re: Evidence Unplugged
Its the earliest preserved document. It is not the original since, as you said, those were largely lost. Its contents ar based on what is/was known from the originals.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by Theodoric, posted 11-08-2022 5:30 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1330 by Theodoric, posted 11-08-2022 7:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1344 of 3694 (901455)
11-10-2022 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1338 by ringo
11-09-2022 2:54 PM


Re: Making It All Up
You are inconsistent in mentioning "the truth.".
You don't acknowledge the Bible as truth apart from human mythos and then say that anyone who challenges it is making up their own story. Why is the original storyline any better? After all if Jesus and His Father were made up to begin with how are the original stories any. better than modern interpretation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1338 by ringo, posted 11-09-2022 2:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1345 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 11:13 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1353 of 3694 (901540)
11-10-2022 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1333 by Percy
11-09-2022 9:02 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
There is no infinite regress. There is an uncaused first cause. In the beginning...intelligence. why is that so improbable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1333 by Percy, posted 11-09-2022 9:02 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1354 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2022 8:39 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1364 by ringo, posted 11-13-2022 1:52 PM Phat has replied

  
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