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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theodoric writes: Personal attacks? You started it by attcking Strobel. And I have not attacked either you or Tangle. I merely called out the skeptics you provided who earn a nice living off of trashing Christianity. As far as credentials go, what sort of credentials would you imagine are needed to defend a faith? All you have are personal attacks, how about making an argument supporting Strobel or showing he has some sort of credentials to actually make a valid argument? This isnt my first rodeo. I have examined arguments and counter-arguments over the years. You likely have also. I will admit bias in favor of arguments supporting belief but would argue that many of you are biased against Christianity solely because of the Right Wing and their politicizing of Christianity back when Falwell started the Moral Majority and continuing to this day. Thus we are both biased to a degree. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I agree that many of the minionswould feast as parasites upon believers but not exclusively. Satan knows he needs to discredit the church and what better way than from within? Satan also knows that all he needs to do with the secukar world is to dekude them into thinking that all progressive ideas are good ones. If there was a Satan, and if he had minions, they would be believers. The devil is in the details."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: In your analogy, the 2nd one would be closer. Which do you think is closer to "absolute truth?"-the one who thinks they can define it and know it completely and can't be wrong? -the skeptic who thinks it's unknowable, but willing to admit when they're proven wrong about it? But allow me to redefine the first example. --the one who believes they have met Him and believe in Communion spiritually with Him and yet are NOT Him and don't know it all. In which case, we both can be right."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theo writes: Care to join me? Its a really BIG rock.
Crawl back under your rock.Matt 7:24-27 NIV writes: 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." So you can either build your house on the rock...or bury your head in the sand.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Admittedly the idea that Jesus is limited to a character In a book is not a part of my belief and I will ignore it repeatedly. Belief can and does go beyond evidence without being totally irrational.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy, I remember years ago when I made up the phrase, "Where we see Monsters, Science shows us Windmills. " You applauded it and told me my mind was singing, IIRC. You are a critical thinker bound by logic, reason, reality (as we know it), and objective evidence. I am aware of, yet never limited by these parameters. You would say that I engage in fanciful thinking, preferring what I want to happen versus what actually happens.
Consider Star Trek. Humans had put many of their racial differences, ethnic prejudices, and competition among nations behind them to form the United Federation of Planets, joining with a few allies and like-minded species (similar to humanoids) and having created an effective traveling incubator(a starship) to boldly go where no man has gone before. My point is this: In that series, the humans aboard that starship encountered numerous beings, creatures, and forces every bit as imagined (by the writers) as anything in any Bible Story. Sci-Fi buffs, in fact, would be more likely to believe those characters as real than they would Biblical stories of other gods and demonic manifestations. I, in contrast, (and based on my experience in life) would be much more likely to stick with the Biblical narrative in popular apologetic culture. Humans are far from ready to venture outside our world and explore. We have too much-unopened mail and baggage from within our own species...which will take us a hundred years to resolve fully.
Percy writes: This would make sense if there actually were no God. Otherwise it falls flat.
What matters is that where they didn't have details, which was everywhere, they made things up. What that reveals about the nature of their God is that they constructed him themselves by making up stories that communicated the message they wanted people to accept about their God. Percy writes: Are you saying that it is highly improbable that *any* are/were true? Or are you saying that it is unlikely that the one GDR and I happen to believe in itself highly unlikely. I suspect that this critically thinking generation is gullible enough to get fooled by a fake force that had evidence to support it and also told the masses everything their itching ears resonated with. There's never been any there for any of them, but for some reason you believe that just this one religion that happens to be the one you believe in was special. The miraculous and/or incredible tales it tells were about something real and true."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Growing up does not mean rejecting the belief as if it is a made up fantasy. Growing up means seeing God(and Jesus as more than simply characters in a book.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
It is a fact that not everyone who professes faith possesses faith. In Phat-world, only Evangelicals are "real Christians" - and not necessarily all evangelicals, either. It's like Faith-math, where there are "millions and millions" of Christians in the world when it's convenient to have a majority - but on actual individual issues, the only "real Christians" are the other five people in the same pew with her. Its likely that you would judge real Christians solely on their willingness to give everything up...houses, cars, and bank accounts included. And before you say a word, yes, I realize that Jesus set that standard, but what *you* don't realize is that Jesus is more than a lawgiving character in a book. He relates to each of us where we are."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo, replying to GDR writes: In matters of supernatural manifestations and healing, the only evidence that survives 2000 years is ongoing reports of witness statements. Granted, you will say its a bit like the game of telephone, where the story changes so much that the point is lost, but I would argue that stories with this much importance are preserved remarkably well. Ask the editors of the various Bibles. They had copies of original manuscripts in which the meaning changed so little as to be negligible. But all too often believers DO disregard reality. Phat, for example, says that believers don't "need" evidence. Not "needing" evidence is just an excuse for denying evidence. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Nonsense. I can read a Bible as well as anybody, and have no ax to grind, unlike the mythicists. And as for Satan being God's minion, I will agree that he was the tempter...which is a bit like tempering iron to become steel.(stronger) Satan's basic job according to Job is to make us tougher and separate the contenders from the pretenders. They(the authors of scripture) made up a God that YOU don't want."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I will address this in my upcoming post with dwise1. Our worthy apologist, Dr. Peter Kreeft, has something to say along these lines. With "God" there is nothing resembling universal agreement about what He said - nor even universal agreement that He said anything."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Note I said Copies.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Its the earliest preserved document. It is not the original since, as you said, those were largely lost. Its contents ar based on what is/was known from the originals.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You are inconsistent in mentioning "the truth.".
You don't acknowledge the Bible as truth apart from human mythos and then say that anyone who challenges it is making up their own story. Why is the original storyline any better? After all if Jesus and His Father were made up to begin with how are the original stories any. better than modern interpretation?
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There is no infinite regress. There is an uncaused first cause. In the beginning...intelligence. why is that so improbable?
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