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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1051 of 1429 (901185)
11-05-2022 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by Phat
11-05-2022 11:44 AM


Re: If Spideys Exist
God could be imaginary and no matter how many people believe it would be irrelevant.
OR...
God could actually exist, in which case no amount of science, philosophy, or supposed human evidence could wave Him away.
Third possibility:
Some powerful supernatural entity that could qualify as "God" actually exists, but there is no evidence of it.
Lacking any evidence of that entity to be able to learn anything about it (Situation Normal whenever we try to deal with the supernatural), so people just do what they always do when they don't know what they're talking about: they make sh*t up.
Hence it's the same as the first possibility that the "God" people have made up is imaginary despite the supernatural existence (not sure how that would work) of a likely candidate for the title of "God".
This would be like ringo's point in Message 1050 about the existence of unicorns (the National Animal of Scotland, BTW -- check out the UK Coat of Arms):
ringo writes:
Unicorns could actually exist, in which case no amount of science, philosophy, or supposed human evidence could wave them away. But if there is no evidence that unicorns exist, they are irrelevant for any practical purpose.
Fourth possibility is a weakness of your second possibility:
So God exists, but the very nature of God is so incredibly far beyond the ability of our puny fallible human minds that we cannot understand it. As a result, we puny humans just make up sh*t about it based on what little we know (which is far less than we think).
Given how extremely little evidence we can find (if any) of it, the many thousands of different gods we have made up and continue to make up all the time are no better than the first possibility that they are imaginary, all made up from our own imagination.
For your second possibility to have any effect at all, your god would need to make itself manifestly apparent. Since that has not happened (independently of the ingestion of certain substances like bad burritos), [language=body]slight head movement with raised eyebrows and gesture with both hands to signify, "Nu?"[/language].
End result is that everybody "knows" what "God" is and disagrees with everybody else about it. The US Supreme Court has even ruled in church-state separation cases that government references to "God" are pretty much devoid of meaning and hence do not violate the separation clause of the First Amendment (I have errands to run so I'll have to hunt down that quote for you later).
 
So, harking back to my earlier topic about why believers approaching atheists are so fixated on "Why don't you believe God exists?" (corollary: "What is you absolute proof that God doesn't exist?").
Whether any of the gods exist or not is really of no importance and very little interest. My own reason for leaving Christianity and becoming an atheist had absolutely nothing to do with God. Rather, I looked at what I was being required to believe and realized that I simply could not believe it.
And as believers have tried to convert me over the subsequent more-than-half-a-century they have consistently failed not because of any "I don't believe in God" position, but rather because I don't believe them. God has nothing to do with any of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1052 of 1429 (901187)
11-05-2022 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 965 by Taq
10-31-2022 12:02 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Which part of that paper describes a practical medical application of the theory of UCD?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 965 by Taq, posted 10-31-2022 12:02 PM Taq has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1053 of 1429 (901188)
11-05-2022 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1047 by Tanypteryx
11-05-2022 10:28 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
If no one believed evolution created those genetic similarities, would those genetic similarities still exist? 
Tanypteryx writes:
Yes, of course. 
Likewise, if no one accepted Universal Common Descent, those genetic similarities would still exist, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1047 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-05-2022 10:28 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1054 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-05-2022 7:06 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1055 by dwise1, posted 11-05-2022 7:17 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1076 by ringo, posted 11-07-2022 10:50 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 1054 of 1429 (901193)
11-05-2022 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1053 by Dredge
11-05-2022 6:44 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Those genetic similarities exist because of common descent, so yes they would still exist regardless of beliefs. That's what is so cool, once researchers started sequencing genes those similarities were discovered just as was predicted. The pattern of genetic similarities is clear and obvious for every species that has been sequenced so far. They all fit into a nested hierarchy that demonstrates inheritance and common descent.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 6:44 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1056 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 7:21 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 1058 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 7:46 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 1055 of 1429 (901194)
11-05-2022 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1053 by Dredge
11-05-2022 6:44 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
You cannot find your own ass with both hands and a flashlight.
Does that mean that it doesn't exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 6:44 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1057 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 7:22 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1056 of 1429 (901196)
11-05-2022 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Tanypteryx
11-05-2022 7:06 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
1047/70
Dredge writes:
if no one accepted Universal Common Descent, those genetic similarities would still exist, right? 
Tanypteryx writes:
yes they would still exist regardless of beliefs
Okay, since those genetic similarities exist regardless of beliefs about their origins, it follows that medical science can make use of those genetic similarities, regardless of beliefs about their origins, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-05-2022 7:06 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1063 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-06-2022 12:28 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1057 of 1429 (901197)
11-05-2022 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1055 by dwise1
11-05-2022 7:17 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Sorry, I don't follow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1055 by dwise1, posted 11-05-2022 7:17 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1082 by dwise1, posted 11-08-2022 9:58 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1058 of 1429 (901200)
11-05-2022 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Tanypteryx
11-05-2022 7:06 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanypteryx writes:
The pattern of genetic similarities is clear and obvious for every species that has been sequenced so far. They all fit into a nested hierarchy that demonstrates inheritance and common descent.
... until you get to the level of Phyla, at which point you realise that nested hierarchies exist only within Phyla. The different Phyla themselves don't collectively form a nest hierarchy, thus disproving the theory of UCD.
But evolutionary scientists ignore that inconvenient truth, coz it ruins one of their favourite atheist bedtime stories (UCD), thus corrupting the noble pursuit of science.
The moral of the story is:
You can't trust evolutionary scientists to tell the truth. Treat everything they tell you with suspicion, doubt and skepticism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-05-2022 7:06 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1059 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-05-2022 8:08 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1078 by Taq, posted 11-07-2022 10:53 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 1059 of 1429 (901204)
11-05-2022 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1058 by Dredge
11-05-2022 7:46 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Sludge writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
The pattern of genetic similarities is clear and obvious for every species that has been sequenced so far. They all fit into a nested hierarchy that demonstrates inheritance and common descent.
... until you get to the level of Phyla, at which point you realise that nested hierarchies exist only within Phyla. The different Phyla themselves don't collectively form a nest hierarchy, thus disproving the theory of UCD.
Oh, it will take far more than your sayso to disprove UCD.
You haven't shown any supporting evidence that genetic comparisons of phyla don't fit into a nested hierarchy.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1058 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 7:46 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1060 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2022 11:35 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1060 of 1429 (901218)
11-06-2022 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1059 by Tanypteryx
11-05-2022 8:08 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanypteryx writes:
You haven't shown any supporting evidence that genetic comparisons of phyla don't fit into a nested hierarchy.
Providing any such evidence would be pointless.
Darwinist assume UCD is a fact, therefore the entire history of life on earth forms one huge nested hierarchy.
The fact that all life contains DNA is all the genetic evidence a Darwinist needs to declare that all phyla form a nested hierarchy ... which makes a farce of the concept of nested hierarchies based on genetics, I should think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1059 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-05-2022 8:08 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1061 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-06-2022 11:39 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1079 by ringo, posted 11-07-2022 11:00 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1081 by Taq, posted 11-07-2022 11:06 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 1061 of 1429 (901219)
11-06-2022 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1060 by Dredge
11-06-2022 11:35 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Sludge writes:
Providing any such evidence would be pointless.
Sound reasoning in the light of no evidence.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1060 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2022 11:35 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1062 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2022 11:56 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1062 of 1429 (901220)
11-06-2022 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1061 by Tanypteryx
11-06-2022 11:39 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Btw, I'm still waiting for your response to Message 1056.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1061 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-06-2022 11:39 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1080 by ringo, posted 11-07-2022 11:04 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 1063 of 1429 (901222)
11-06-2022 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1056 by Dredge
11-05-2022 7:21 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Sludge writes:
it follows that medical science can make use of those genetic similarities, regardless of beliefs about their origins, right?
Luckily, medical science doesn't have to rely on beliefs because they have evidence of common descent.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 7:21 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1064 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2022 12:51 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1064 of 1429 (901223)
11-06-2022 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1063 by Tanypteryx
11-06-2022 12:28 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanypteryx writes:
medical science doesn't have to rely on beliefs because they have evidence of common descent.
Evidence of UCD is irrelevant to Message 1056, so I'm still waiting for your response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-06-2022 12:28 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1065 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-06-2022 1:22 PM Dredge has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 1065 of 1429 (901224)
11-06-2022 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1064 by Dredge
11-06-2022 12:51 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Sludge writes:
Evidence of UCD is irrelevant to Message 1056
I think the evidence is relevant.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2022 12:51 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1066 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2022 5:18 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
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