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jar Member (Idle past 165 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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The good father feeds his children with knowledge instead of bread?
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Phat Member Posts: 18716 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
The good father feeds his children with knowledge instead of bread? My Father provided plenty of bread but not so much knowledge. I was forced to find that on my own, though when a man has a full stomach he is not as desperate to find ways to earn his own bread. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith ![]()
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ringo Member (Idle past 737 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The good father doesn't necessarily spoon-feed his children, either with bread or with knowledge. He encourages them to earn their own bread and seek their own knowledge. My Father provided plenty of bread but not so much knowledge. I was forced to find that on my own....An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Stile Member (Idle past 369 days) Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: It must be convenient for you to be your own judge. Isnt it nice to wipe away all of your own sins? I am an atheist.On an unrelated-to-being-an-atheist note, I believe that each and every person that's-not-me has just as much right (perhaps more so) to judge me than any God that anyone has ever believed in. I have over 8 billion real, living, current judges judging me.Constantly. I have to talk to some of them each and every day. You have 1 judge judging you and you don't even have to look Him in the eyes until the end of your life?Oh what I would give to have it so easy... ![]()
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Phat Member Posts: 18716 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Expounding further...
I believe that God wants us to *need* Him. ringo writes: Assuming for a moment that God has human emotions and is governed by them...He is the ultimate egomaniac. The only One in the entire universe who knows that everybody and everything needs Him, and needs to need Him. Oh, some may imagine that they don't. They gleefully suggest that humans created God and now have no further need of Him. Or they gush on unabashedly how their "skydaddy" is their b*tch and had best give them stimulus checks for eternity. Why would He "want" us to need Him? So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us? Surely He has better things to do. And if, after all, He created us to need Him, why not just make it a done deal?
ringo writes: The Prime Minister should be ashamed of himself for *not* asking more of the public (who have lived awhile) for advice. And the guy on the corner? He needs your dollar more than he needs you. We humans like to feel we are needed - but we have other humans who need us to one extent or another. Isn't it enough that the guy on the corner needs me to give him a dollar for drugs? Should I feel inadequate because the Prime Minister doesn't ask me for advice? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18716 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Stile writes: Are you saying that humans know each other better than God knows them?
I believe that each and every person that's-not-me has just as much right (perhaps more so) to judge me than any God that anyone has ever believed in. Stile writes: Most of them are too busy to give me a moment's thought. I have over 8 billion real, living, current judges judging me.Constantly. I have to talk to some of them each and every day. ![]() I suppose a case could be made for learned behavior. The fact that I see, however, is that since all of us are human and none of us are perfect, we dont so much collectively judge each other as hold each other to ever more difficult standards. And then we have guys like Putin who could care less about the planet or any other fellow human and set progress back a hundred years.
Stile writes: You have 1 judge judging you and you don't even have to look Him in the eyes until the end of your life?
Oh, but we have to look Him in the eye. His Spirit resides in some humans and if they look us in the eye, He effectively looks us in the eye!"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18716 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
ringo writes: Imagine if this "good father" someday sits them down and separates them into two groups. One group gets to divide the Father's inheritance among themselves. The other group gets nothing. Would that be fair? The good father doesn't necessarily spoon-feed his children, either with bread or with knowledge. He encourages them to earn their own bread and seek their own knowledge."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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ringo Member (Idle past 737 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
OR... the people who made him up wanted him to have human emotions.
Assuming for a moment that God has human emotions and is governed by them... Phat writes:
You do understand that that's a bad thing, don't you? (Or maybe you don't. Maybe that's why you admire Trump so much, because you've created your god in Trump's image.)
He is the ultimate egomaniac. Phat writes:
Wasn't it Thomas Paine who said that people know their own needs better than some goober on a throne an ocean away?
The only One in the entire universe who knows that everybody and everything needs Him, and needs to need Him. Phat writes:
Correction, NEVER needed him - at least since we stole fire from him, anyway.
They gleefully suggest that humans created God and now have no further need of Him. Phat writes:
No, we give each other stimulus checks.
Or they gush on unabashedly how their "skydaddy" is their b*tch and had best give them stimulus checks for eternity. Phat writes:
We've been asking you that for a long time. The answer seems to be that you've created your god in your own image. So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us? (I note that YOU don't try to answer your own question.)
Phat writes:
I said he doesn't ask ME. I didn't say he doesn't ask the public. ringo writes:
The Prime Minister should be ashamed of himself for *not* asking more of the public (who have lived awhile) for advice. Should I feel inadequate because the Prime Minister doesn't ask me for advice? I'll tell you anecdotally why I have never voted Conservative:
In every provincial election from the time I turned eighteen until I moved into an apartment three years ago (the politicians can't get in the door), the NDP (socialist) candidate has stood on my doorstep and talked to me in person. EVERY single election (maybe fifteen of them). During that same period of time, NOT ONE Conservative candidate has EVER come to my door. NOT ONE. Full disclosure: ONE conservative canvasser did come to the door ONCE - but I have never met an actual Conservative candidate.
So it is the conservatives who are not consulting me."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 737 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
A good father wouldn't do that. ringo writes:
Imagine if this "good father" someday sits them down and separates them into two groups. One group gets to divide the Father's inheritance among themselves. The other group gets nothing. Would that be fair? The good father doesn't necessarily spoon-feed his children, either with bread or with knowledge. He encourages them to earn their own bread and seek their own knowledge. Why do you ask me questions with such obvious answers?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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Phat Member Posts: 18716 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Phat writes:
Assuming for a moment that God has human emotions and is governed by them...ringo writes: There are no "people" who made up God. God found us...we never invented Him. Next question?
OR... the people who made him up wanted him to have human emotions. Phat writes:
He is the ultimate egomaniac.You do understand that that's a bad thing, don't you? (Or maybe you don't. Maybe that's why you admire Trump so much because you've created your god in Trump's image.) Trump has nothing to do with it. I swear that in your world there are only liberals (proper people) conservatives(bad and evil people) and Canadians.(Contrarians) I defend God as being an egomaniac with a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor but did it ever occur to you that God and God alone has a right to have a big head. You piss-ant Johnny-come-lately's are as insignificant to Him as pond scum, excepting Jesus. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son...
Phat writes:
The only One in the entire universe who knows that everybody and everything needs Him, and needs to need Him.Wasn't it Thomas Paine who said that people know their own needs better than some goober on a throne an ocean away? So now God Himself is defined by ringo of Saskatchewan as another "goober"! ![]() Phat writes:
They gleefully suggest that humans created God and now have no further need of Him.Correction, NEVER needed him - at least since we stole fire from him, anyway. Reducing God, the Creator of all seen and unseen to an anthropomorphic invention of primitive people is dishonest. I don't even think we humans are even wise enough to imagine the greatness of God...if not for Jesus.
ringo writes: Well, if you and your liberal ilk were even worthy enough to be noble people of the book, you would never mandate compulsive giving beyond the tithe. You would never try and throw God away. You would never legislate nor attempt to legislate morality. You would never give people the right to self-identify, as if they even knew what was best for them (and others) You would humble yourselves, pray to the Creator of this great and grand universe, and allow Him to give you wisdom, insight, and purpose. Instead, like lemmings falling off of a cliff, you attempt to help all of the people and will end up helping none of them, once our economy collapses, we have rioting and looting in city streets, and the world sits at the brink of destruction. Even then you won't pray. You will do the easy thing and blame the conservatives!
No, we give each other stimulus checks.![]() Phat writes:
So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us?We've been asking you that for a long time. The answer seems to be that you've created your god in your own image. First of all, who is this mystical *we*? It sure as hell isn't "we the people". At best it is "we the peanut gallery!"
I note that YOU don't try to answer your own question. I said it earlier and it is quite simple. God created us long before we were evolved enough to imagine Him.
ringo writes: Though I self-identify as a moderate, I will represent the non-Trumpian Conservatives and would gladly knock on your door any day of the week. I will even bring my own lunch and water. We can then walk to the library to talk. I'll tell you anecdotally why I have never voted Conservative:
In every provincial election from the time I turned eighteen until I moved into an apartment three years ago (the politicians can't get in the door), the NDP (socialist) candidate has stood on my doorstep and talked to me in person. EVERY single election (maybe fifteen of them). During that same period of time, NOT ONE Conservative candidate has EVER come to my door. NOT ONE. Full disclosure: ONE conservative canvasser did come to the door ONCE - but I have never met an actual Conservative candidate.
So it is the conservatives who are not consulting me. Edited by Phat, : punctuation "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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ringo Member (Idle past 737 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course there are. You're a shining example of that. Your God has only the qualities that you cherry-pick for Him.
There are no "people" who made up God. Phat writes:
We wouldn't need a "next question" if you'd deal with that one honestly.
Next question? Phat writes:
Instead of just denying, why don't you THINK?
Trump has nothing to do with it. Phat writes:
1. I live in the second-most conservative Province in Canada. Almost everybody I know is conservative, so it wouldn't be practical for me to consider all of them "evil". I swear that in your world there are only liberals (proper people) conservatives(bad and evil people) and Canadians.(Contrarians)2. I am not a contrarian. Phat writes:
You can assume that everything that occurs to you has occurred to me. Most of what occurs to you occurred to me fifty years ago.
... did it ever occur to you that God and God alone has a right to have a big head. Phat writes:
On the contrary, He has no "rights" at all. He doesn't need any if hHe's omnipotent.
... did it ever occur to you that God and God alone has a right to have a big head. Phat writes:
Now you're showing your true colors. Your (made-up) god doesn't want "communion" with us. We're scum.
You piss-ant Johnny-come-lately's are as insignificant to Him as pond scum... Phat writes:
What do you mean by that?
... excepting Jesus. Phat writes:
He loved us like pond scum? Make up your mind.
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son... Phat writes:
YOUR made-up god is barely a goober. So now God Himself is defined by ringo of Saskatchewan as another "goober"! (And why do you keep calling me "ringo of Saskatchewan?")
Phat writes:
Having an exaggerated ego is a bad thing. Can you dispute that at all?
And you claim that having a big ego is a bad thing? Phat writes:
How do you expect them to react?
Wait until the guys at the office get a load of this! Phat writes:
You're the one who has done that. And yes, it is blatantly dishonest to call him the "Creator of all seen and unseen" and then claim that he doesn't create evil. Evil is both seen and unseen. Reducing God, the Creator of all seen and unseen to an anthropomorphic invention of primitive people is dishonest. The god that YOU have made up is certainly comparable to " an anthropomorphic invention of primitive people".
Phat writes:
It's true that YOUR imagination has produced a puny Trump of a god. You'd be better of sticking to what the bronze-age sheep herders said.
I don't even think we humans are even wise enough to imagine the greatness of God... Phat writes:
Again, what do you mean by that?
... if not for Jesus. Phat writes:
Jesus was one of those "ilk", asshole.
Well, if you and your liberal ilk... Phat writes:
People of the book do what the book says.
... were even worthy enough to be noble people of the book... Phat writes:
And I never have. ... you would never mandate compulsive giving beyond the tithe. It was Jesus who made it a mandate.
Phat writes:
What has that got to do with stimulus checks?
You would never try and throw God away. Phat writes:
And I don't. It's your conservative ilk that do that. *cough* abortion laws *cough*
You would never legislate nor attempt to legislate morality. Phat writes:
See Thomas Paine again. People know what's best for themselves more than some goober on a throne.
You would never give people the right to self-identify, as if they even knew what was best for them (and others) Phat writes:
You should buy a mirror, Mr. Holier-than-thou.
You would humble yourselves, Phat writes:
We can get more wisdom, insight and purpose from the universe itself than we will ever get from your silly ranting about your made-up god.
... pray to the Creator of this great and grand universe, and allow Him to give you wisdom, insight, and purpose. Phat writes:
The world IS on the brink of destruction but it has nothing to do with helping each other too much. Instead, like lemmings falling off of a cliff, you attempt to help all of the people and will end up helping none of them, once our economy collapses, we have rioting and looting in city streets, and the world sits at the brink of destruction. Honestly, you'd better hope your god ISN'T real because the way you spit on Jesus, you're gong to be struck down.
Phat writes:
That's a fittingly stupid end to a thoroughly stupid rant.
Even then you won't pray. You will do the easy thing and blame the conservatives! Phat writes:
"We" is the people who have been asking you that question. There is nothing "mystical" or even mysterious about it.
So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us?ringo writes:
First of all, who is this mystical *we*? We've been asking you that for a long time. The answer seems to be that you've created your god in your own image. Phat writes:
And I didn't say it was. i said it was "we the people who asked the question."
It sure as hell isn't "we the people". Phat writes:
So you did know the answer all along. Why did you waste my time?
At best it is "we the peanut gallery!" Phat writes:
The question was, "Why is God so petty as to need us?" You still haven't answered it.
ringo writes: I said it earlier and it is quite simple. God created us long before we were evolved enough to imagine Him. I note that YOU don't try to answer your own question. Phat writes:
Tell that to tthe conservatives who know where my door is. Though I self-identify as a moderate, I will represent the non-Trumpian Conservatives and would gladly knock on your door any day of the week."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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Stile Member (Idle past 369 days) Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Phat writes: Stile writes: Are you saying that humans know each other better than God knows them? I believe that each and every person that's-not-me has just as much right (perhaps more so) to judge me than any God that anyone has ever believed in. No - I don't even see how your response is related to my statement.But I do think my statement was worded not-so-great, so I'll try again: I believe that people have a right to judge their peers.I believe they have more of a right to judge their peers than non-peers. In putting "humans" as "peers" - I think humans have a right to judge each other that's equal (or possibly more than) God's right to judge humans. I would say that God, if He is "all-knowing" would know people better than other people would... and this is why God is not a "peer." He is all-knowing, and humans are not. Therefore, a part of "not knowing everything, but judging as best we can" is a part of being human, and something that God is missing and therefore isn't able to judge us in the way we can judge us. In that sense - God's judgement is lesser. Think of growing an ant farm.Think of yourself as "the creator" of the ants and the farm... but they go about their business doing their thing. You could use your full-data of the farm and the ants to judge them. But the ants could use ant-available-data to judge themselves. There are ways where the "full-data" judging can be seen as better.And there are ways where the "ant-available-data" judging can be seen as better (simply because it's from their perspective.) If I wanted to know "how I'm doing as a human" - God's judgement would be interesting, but other-human's judgement would be more informative. God may be able to know all the other-human's judgements and relay that information... but this would be "equal" to human judgement, and not greater.If God's judgement is different... then it's not "how I'm doing as human" - it's more "how I'm doing in God's eyes" - which is an interesting question - but it is a different question and doesn't answer "how I'm doing as a human." Most of them are too busy to give me a moment's thought. Sure - but judgement from other people is obviously more "in your face" than judgement from God on a daily basis.
The fact that I see, however, is that since all of us are human and none of us are perfect, we dont so much collectively judge each other as hold each other to ever more difficult standards. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Holding each other to ever more difficult standards comes from judging people. Yet you say it's "not so much judging" each other... when that's exactly what it is. It doesn't seem to make any sense.Sounds to me like you're attempting to force words to mean something else to get away from some idea you're afraid to discuss in your mind. Oh, but we have to look Him in the eye. Once? At the end of my life?Easy peasy. Again - this is one single judgement at one particular time in my life. I have tens, hundreds, thousands (possibly more) people judging me and my actions every day of my life. And you're attempting to say the single judgement at the end, that's not even in your face, and has no immediate consequences while we're alive... is harder to deal with? That's just... clearly wrong. It's so wrong the word "wrong" isn't enough to describe it.It's like you're attempting to convince me that an inspector giving a 5 min. review of the building at the end of the build is going to be "more harsh" than an inspector that's glued to your hip and looking over your shoulder the entire 4 year build of the project. It's wronger than wrong. Even if the inspector at the end is all-knowing... he would only be able to be equal to the one over your shoulder the entire time, not "more harsh." And you have the benefit of only going through it once, instead of all-day every-day the entire time.
His Spirit resides in some humans and if they look us in the eye, He effectively looks us in the eye! Are you attempting to say that second-hand "effectively" anything is more direct than direct, first-hand things? How much wronger-than-wrong are you trying to get to?
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Phat Member Posts: 18716 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Stile writes: I agree with everything you say and would only add that IF Jesus is God Incarnate that He is in effect one of the ants. God had to become an ant to understand ants. I would say that God, if He is "all-knowing" would know people better than other people would... and this is why God is not a "peer." He is all-knowing, and humans are not. Therefore, a part of "not knowing everything, but judging as best we can" is a part of being human, and something that God is missing and therefore isn't able to judge us in the way we can judge ourselves. In that sense - God's judgment is lesser. Think of growing an ant farm. Think of yourself as "the creator" of the ants and the farm... but they go about their business doing their thing. You could use your full data of the farm and the ants to judge them. But the ants could use ant-available data to judge themselves. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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ringo Member (Idle past 737 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
By that logic, He would have to become Canadian to understand Canadians. God had to become an ant to understand ants.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: |
God had to become an ant to understand ants.
I thought the dude was omniscient. So he is not omniscient? Do you not understand your religion?What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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