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Author | Topic: Evangelical Support Group | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
OR... the people who made him up wanted him to have human emotions.
Assuming for a moment that God has human emotions and is governed by them... Phat writes:
You do understand that that's a bad thing, don't you? (Or maybe you don't. Maybe that's why you admire Trump so much, because you've created your god in Trump's image.)
He is the ultimate egomaniac. Phat writes:
Wasn't it Thomas Paine who said that people know their own needs better than some goober on a throne an ocean away?
The only One in the entire universe who knows that everybody and everything needs Him, and needs to need Him. Phat writes:
Correction, NEVER needed him - at least since we stole fire from him, anyway.
They gleefully suggest that humans created God and now have no further need of Him. Phat writes:
No, we give each other stimulus checks.
Or they gush on unabashedly how their "skydaddy" is their b*tch and had best give them stimulus checks for eternity. Phat writes:
We've been asking you that for a long time. The answer seems to be that you've created your god in your own image. So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us? (I note that YOU don't try to answer your own question.)
Phat writes:
I said he doesn't ask ME. I didn't say he doesn't ask the public. ringo writes:
The Prime Minister should be ashamed of himself for *not* asking more of the public (who have lived awhile) for advice. Should I feel inadequate because the Prime Minister doesn't ask me for advice? I'll tell you anecdotally why I have never voted Conservative:
In every provincial election from the time I turned eighteen until I moved into an apartment three years ago (the politicians can't get in the door), the NDP (socialist) candidate has stood on my doorstep and talked to me in person. EVERY single election (maybe fifteen of them). During that same period of time, NOT ONE Conservative candidate has EVER come to my door. NOT ONE. Full disclosure: ONE conservative canvasser did come to the door ONCE - but I have never met an actual Conservative candidate.
So it is the conservatives who are not consulting me."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
A good father wouldn't do that. ringo writes:
Imagine if this "good father" someday sits them down and separates them into two groups. One group gets to divide the Father's inheritance among themselves. The other group gets nothing. Would that be fair? The good father doesn't necessarily spoon-feed his children, either with bread or with knowledge. He encourages them to earn their own bread and seek their own knowledge. Why do you ask me questions with such obvious answers?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course there are. You're a shining example of that. Your God has only the qualities that you cherry-pick for Him.
There are no "people" who made up God. Phat writes:
We wouldn't need a "next question" if you'd deal with that one honestly.
Next question? Phat writes:
Instead of just denying, why don't you THINK?
Trump has nothing to do with it. Phat writes:
1. I live in the second-most conservative Province in Canada. Almost everybody I know is conservative, so it wouldn't be practical for me to consider all of them "evil". I swear that in your world there are only liberals (proper people) conservatives(bad and evil people) and Canadians.(Contrarians)2. I am not a contrarian. Phat writes:
You can assume that everything that occurs to you has occurred to me. Most of what occurs to you occurred to me fifty years ago.
... did it ever occur to you that God and God alone has a right to have a big head. Phat writes:
On the contrary, He has no "rights" at all. He doesn't need any if hHe's omnipotent.
... did it ever occur to you that God and God alone has a right to have a big head. Phat writes:
Now you're showing your true colors. Your (made-up) god doesn't want "communion" with us. We're scum.
You piss-ant Johnny-come-lately's are as insignificant to Him as pond scum... Phat writes:
What do you mean by that?
... excepting Jesus. Phat writes:
He loved us like pond scum? Make up your mind.
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son... Phat writes:
YOUR made-up god is barely a goober. So now God Himself is defined by ringo of Saskatchewan as another "goober"! (And why do you keep calling me "ringo of Saskatchewan?")
Phat writes:
Having an exaggerated ego is a bad thing. Can you dispute that at all?
And you claim that having a big ego is a bad thing? Phat writes:
How do you expect them to react?
Wait until the guys at the office get a load of this! Phat writes:
You're the one who has done that. And yes, it is blatantly dishonest to call him the "Creator of all seen and unseen" and then claim that he doesn't create evil. Evil is both seen and unseen. Reducing God, the Creator of all seen and unseen to an anthropomorphic invention of primitive people is dishonest. The god that YOU have made up is certainly comparable to " an anthropomorphic invention of primitive people".
Phat writes:
It's true that YOUR imagination has produced a puny Trump of a god. You'd be better of sticking to what the bronze-age sheep herders said.
I don't even think we humans are even wise enough to imagine the greatness of God... Phat writes:
Again, what do you mean by that?
... if not for Jesus. Phat writes:
Jesus was one of those "ilk", asshole.
Well, if you and your liberal ilk... Phat writes:
People of the book do what the book says.
... were even worthy enough to be noble people of the book... Phat writes:
And I never have. ... you would never mandate compulsive giving beyond the tithe. It was Jesus who made it a mandate.
Phat writes:
What has that got to do with stimulus checks?
You would never try and throw God away. Phat writes:
And I don't. It's your conservative ilk that do that. *cough* abortion laws *cough*
You would never legislate nor attempt to legislate morality. Phat writes:
See Thomas Paine again. People know what's best for themselves more than some goober on a throne.
You would never give people the right to self-identify, as if they even knew what was best for them (and others) Phat writes:
You should buy a mirror, Mr. Holier-than-thou.
You would humble yourselves, Phat writes:
We can get more wisdom, insight and purpose from the universe itself than we will ever get from your silly ranting about your made-up god.
... pray to the Creator of this great and grand universe, and allow Him to give you wisdom, insight, and purpose. Phat writes:
The world IS on the brink of destruction but it has nothing to do with helping each other too much. Instead, like lemmings falling off of a cliff, you attempt to help all of the people and will end up helping none of them, once our economy collapses, we have rioting and looting in city streets, and the world sits at the brink of destruction. Honestly, you'd better hope your god ISN'T real because the way you spit on Jesus, you're gong to be struck down.
Phat writes:
That's a fittingly stupid end to a thoroughly stupid rant.
Even then you won't pray. You will do the easy thing and blame the conservatives! Phat writes:
"We" is the people who have been asking you that question. There is nothing "mystical" or even mysterious about it.
So the question could be better phrased. Why is God so petty as to need us?ringo writes:
First of all, who is this mystical *we*? We've been asking you that for a long time. The answer seems to be that you've created your god in your own image. Phat writes:
And I didn't say it was. i said it was "we the people who asked the question."
It sure as hell isn't "we the people". Phat writes:
So you did know the answer all along. Why did you waste my time?
At best it is "we the peanut gallery!" Phat writes:
The question was, "Why is God so petty as to need us?" You still haven't answered it.
ringo writes: I said it earlier and it is quite simple. God created us long before we were evolved enough to imagine Him. I note that YOU don't try to answer your own question. Phat writes:
Tell that to tthe conservatives who know where my door is. Though I self-identify as a moderate, I will represent the non-Trumpian Conservatives and would gladly knock on your door any day of the week."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
By that logic, He would have to become Canadian to understand Canadians. God had to become an ant to understand ants.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're just parroting dogma. And He is not petty. No human has the wisdom to make such a claim.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
If He is doing that, why are you so wrong-headed about so many things? I depend on Him to give me wisdom that education and secular information alone cannot provide.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
So are all of us. And there are many people on this forum who don't have your God whispering in their ears who are much better thinkers than you. Your God may actually be holding you back. Because I'm human.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You don't get the reality you "prefer". You only get the real one.
The only way I would "imagine"that is if I preferred that reality...which I don't. Phat writes:
He allows us the freedom to not allow Him to hold us back? Nice. The God I believe in can only be ignored by you because He allows you that freedom.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You keep contradicting yourself. You claim that "free will" allows us to learn for ourselves - and now you claim that God holds us back from our free will so we don't have to learn for ourselves. Keep in mind that anytime He would hold us back it would always be for our benefit.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
No, I don't believe He was a historical character. He was, and is, a fictional character. And that's not a belief. It's based on evidence (or lack of evidence).
You believe that Jesus was a mythically created historical character. Phat writes:
I don't believe there is anything "spiritual", apart from our minds. Just like you don't believe there is anything leprechaunal, apart from our minds. And you don't believe there is anything Santa Clausal, apart from our minds.
You don't believe that there is a spiritual conflict between good and evil, apart from in our minds. Phat writes:
No need to assert it. It's a conclusion based on evidence. And it isn't just humans; it's every social species.
Having now asserted that humans already know the difference between good and bad behavior and actions... Phat writes:
That's what free will means. What you seem to be talking about is "cheap will", where you always have a backup god to magically fix your bad "free" decisions. But we know that isn't true - because your bad decisions don't get fixed unless you fix them yourself.
You think that free will means that we figure it all out for ourselves.... Phat writes:
Again, not an assumption, a conclusion. Social species, yada yada yada.
... assume that humans are basically good Phat writes:
You're a living demonstration of that. Your belief in your made-up god is a stumbling-block. and that no God is required, even if one existed. You said you were going to help us understand your convoluted logic but you didn't. Here's what you quoted:
quote:Explain. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The difference is that the Biblical writers didn't know any better. You ought to. Kindly explain the difference between a made-up God in 2022 versus a made-up God penned by any number of Biblical writers. The Biblical writers didn't have science to guide them. You ought to.
Phat writes:
You're the one who wants to have it both ways. You piggyback on the Bible when it suits you and deny it when it doesn't suit you. You can't have it both ways. I, on the other hand, am pretty consistent:1. The Bible says what it says. 2. Much of what it says is wrong. Phat writes:
They made up a nasty God who punished them for stepping out of line. You make up a white-washed God who only asks you to do what you already want to do.
If they made God up, how is it any different than me making Him up?? Phat writes:
I don't prefer ANY god. apart from you preferring their version of God, expounded upon in scripture And if YOU are going to ever mention scripture at all, you need to learn to accept it as it is.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You should learn to read. It's a useful skill. ringo writes:
Such hubris! That humans *ought* to know better than to make up a God! The difference is that the Biblical writers didn't know any better. You ought to. I didn't say anything like, "humans *ought* to know better than to make up a God". I said, "THE BIBLICAL WRITERS" didn't know any better. They didn't have science. They didn't know the real reasons for things like lightning, so they made up gods to explain them. You ought to know better. (And you should also learn what hubris means.)
Phat writes:
Blah blah blah.... What a load of rubbish.
You will be proven wrong very shortly...likely within a year, when our entire system begins to unravel and the world is faced with everything that Matthew warned us against. Phat writes:
There have always been wars and rumors of wars. I don't have time to list the wars we've had in my own lifetime. wars and rumors of wars The difference is that now we try to stop them.
Phat writes:
That's what I'm telling you. Science is NOT shamanistic, like your religion, and it SHOULD be consulted in order to form cognizant philosophical worldviews. Ever hear of a little problem called "global climate change" that science has been trying to warn us about?
"Science" is not some shamanistic ancient ritual to consult in order to form cognizant philosophical worldviews. Phat writes:
Your thought patterns are so bizarre that it's hard to believe what I'm reading. Jesus Christ DID pine for a world of universal love, acceptance, and inclusiveness. yet, you spit on Him and yearn for an ultra-Trump world of hate and lies. Don't walk around barefoot if you don't want the homeless people you step on to squish up between your toes.
Rather, the ultra-liberals will pine for a world of universal love, acceptance, and inclusiveness which will end up being a phony counterfeit to the original ideal expressed through Jesus Christ. Phat writes:
So you prefer irrational, uncrtical, unthinking minds?
Again, ringo thinks that rational critically thinking secular minds have it right. Phat writes:
And yet, you have never been able to back up that empty assertion.
Which you don't. Phat writes:
And yet, you have never been able to back up that empty assertion.
Without acceptance of and obedience to Jesus, you will fail... Phat writes:
The antichrist spirit is yours. You are the one who denies Jesus.
... along with the antichrist spirit of the secular age. Phat writes:
It doesn't matter "why". They DID. Read the Old Testament.
Why on earth would any people make up a nasty God? Phat writes:
That's what the shamans claimed. The people were nasty and the nasty god would punish them if they didn't keep the shamans supplied with barbecued oxen.
It was the people themselves who were nasty... Phat writes:
Horrors! Some of them might even have been Mexicans! ... into idol worship, temple prostitution sex (as a tantric spirituality), and incest. I have asked you before what is so terrible about any of those things and you didn't answer. Answer now.
Phat writes:
You're just repeating what I said. How is it nonsense when i say it?
ringo writes:
Nonsense. I worship a God who is personal and approachable... You make up a white-washed God who only asks you to do what you already want to do. Phat writes:
You keep missing the point. The character in the book is the only evidence we have that Jesus ever existed. You're throwing out the only evidence we have and making up a a white-washed God who only asks you to do what you already want to do.
... not some static character in an ancient book! Phat writes:
Again, you should learn to read. It's a useful skill. a white-washed God who only asks you to do what you already want to do. I said, "IF you are going to ever mention scripture at all, you need to learn to accept it as it is." You can't quote the parts you like and spit on the parts you don't like. You will not get away with that. Your dishonesty will be exposed.
Phat writes:
1. I do not reject God. I reject YOUR perverted theology. If there was a God, I would be His best buddy. It is you who reject God and twist the meanings of an ancient book to line up with your socialist human ideal.2. I do not "twist" anything. i quote exactly what the Bible says. I try to UNtwist the mangling that your perverted theology does. 3. You keep forgetting that socialism is a very good thing: schools, roads, etc. Don't get all of your ideas from Trump. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I didn't "choose" not to believe any more than you chose not to believe in leprechauns. We both don't believe because there is no evidence. The only difference is that you have a double standard for your made-up god.
Its not enough that you personally chose not to believe... Phat writes:
It isn't just ancient messengers that are irrelevant. ALL messengers are irrelevant. It's the message that matters - and you know that. You don't throw out your bills and worship the envelopes. But you have a double standard for your made-up god.
... in an ancient messenger as relevant... Phat writes:
And why wouldn't ancient liberalism resonate with modern liberalism? Has love changed? Have neighbors changed?
... but only in His message which resonated with your modern liberalism. Phat writes:
I keep asking you and you never answer: If you don't like Trump, why do you agree with him about everything? Why do you use the same insults as he does? Answer the question.
Im not pro Trump, despite ringos attempts to link me with and label me as a Trump. Phat writes:
Ignorance? Or hate?
I am also not a liberal for several reasons. Phat writes:
Not "entitled". Required. By human decency.
The liberals seem to think that they are entitled to spend whatever is necessary to help everyone... Phat writes:
Where did Jesus say, "Lend to thy neighbor - but make damn sure he pays you back, even if his children die because of it"? ...even though not everyone will end up paying it back. Of course, it DOES get paid back. People on welfare shop at your store, don't they? The people we help don't stash all of their money away in the Cayman Islands. They spend it locally. If you'e worried about money going away and never coming back, look to the rich tax evaders (like Trump, who thinks it's "smart" to avoid taxes).
Phat writes:
And you don't understand the circulation of money, As the Preacher said, "Cast your bread upon the waters, for you will find it after many days." (Ecclesiastes 11:1)
You people do not understand the disciplined reality of money in general. Phat writes:
It IS limitless. It circulates - i.e. it moves in a circle. You give spare change to a homeless guy and he spends it on drugs and the drug dealer spends it in your store to feed his children. It's only the rich conservatives who limit it by hiding it in the Cayman Islands and stopping the circulation.
You seem to think that if the majority can agree to keep using "it" as if it is limitless... Phat writes:
You need to stop thinking of it as a "bill".
... we all ought to want to help pay the bill. Phat writes:
So you're a tax evader, like Trump.
The government will never find all of my money, nor will they get their hands on any of it... Phat writes:
So you'll never be a real Christian.
I will not be sucked into an inclusive lovey dovey agenda.
Phat writes:
You don't need to mansplain that to me. I have told you many, many, many times that it is NOT about the government at all. Yes, I owe the ancient messenger all that I have. I'm just explaining to you that He is NOT the same as the government. You have made up a convenient, self-serving god that you never have to give anything to, even if you claim to owe everything to him.
Phat writes:
I have never been in power.
The problem with you people is that when you are in power... Phat writes:
To do what needs to be done.
... everyone's money and taxes become yours to do what you want with. Phat writes:
I don't have a "Green New Bill" or know what one is. There will be a revolt, however. Even now, wealthy families are buying gold and moving it to offshore vaults. They see what's coming and they want nothing to do with your Green New Bill. And FYI, those wealthy families are robbing YOU just like they're robbing the poor.
Phat writes:
Theft. What is the offshore system? Are you actually suggesting that hiding money from creditors is a good thing? Did you read your own quote?
quote:Do you really think that's a good thing? Phat writes:
But you support the rich doing it.
I might add that I would never do anything illegal... Phat writes:
Your hatred of the government is noted. Maybe you have never heard the phrase, "We, the people...." I simply protest a digital currency system where every bit of money and financial transactions can be traced by the government. It's sad. The US once showed such promise - but it's being taken over by a bunch of lying, thieving conservative assholes. And like the poor whites who fought to conserve slavery, you're on their side.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I glanced at it. It seems like typical apologetics and philosophical mumbo-jumbo - with relatively little reference to Dan Barker.
I found this: Dan Barkers "deconversion" Phat writes:
The apologetic side has always been there. It never changes and it doesn't address the rebuttals. The response was enlightening and shows me that two sides to every story exist..Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You wouldn't be able to run away like you do here.
If we lived in the same town, we likely would end up arguing until we couldn't stand each other... Phat writes:
When have I ever defended my "deconversion"?
he loves to defend his own deconversion... Phat writes:
It's not a "hint". You are not an altruistic Christian by any stretch of the imagination. You are openly anti-Christian.
... and hint that I'm less of an altruistic Christian.... Phat writes:
I am not an "emphatic non-believer". I drifted away from belief. It was not traumatic for me but I was definitely reluctant. I could go back easily, if there was anything to it.
... than he is an empathetic nonbeliever. Phat writes:
I couldn't care less about deconversion stories.
You want to hear deconversion stories. Phat writes:
It wasn't a decision. It was just a gradual realization that I was free of the superstition. It reinforces your own decisions to drop the belief.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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