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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: It is not as if the early Christians seem to have done a out of work to ensure the accuracy of their claims - or even that their claims are entirely clear. And indeed, you discount the claims about Mark. So drop the hostility. Interestingly it has come to my attention that Garrow proposes that the Didache is Q, so perhaps it is neither lost nor invented.
quote: It is your argument that makes no sense. First there is no need to mention an event so widely known. Second, separating the Christians from the Jews would point to a later time of writing, not earlier, when Christianity had ceased to be a Jewish sect.
quote: It makes no sense that the Olivet discourse would be rewritten to better fit events until after the events had happened - yet we see exactly that in Luke. But that is what we see. How can you deny that?
quote: So, we have no real evidence that the Aramaic document referred to by Papias has any connection to the Gospel associated with Matthew.
quote: Because it simply associated Q with Markan priority, ignoring the arguments for Q and ignoring the Farrer hypothesis.
quote: I think that “rule over the people of the Earth” is adequate mention of a “kingdom”.
quote: They were already combined. And “son of man” does nothing to combine them.
quote: Daniel does not give the “one like a son of man” rule over heaven. Only Earth.
quote: Neither account mentions the Disciples splitting up. Both accounts have instructions from Jesus - which contradict. Neither account shows any awareness of the other story - unless it is by deliberate denial (and I think that Luke is deliberately denying Matthew’s story). So I wouldn’t say you had a “speculative answer”, just a false excuse for denying the truth.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Quite a bit to untangle here...perhaps we would be better off going fishing first so as to declutter our minds...but as you know I seriously believe this stuff and for the record am thinking much clearer than I was several months ago. My A1C is now down to 7.5...quite a drop from 13 and 12 (which it was for the previous year). 2,000 years after the alleged events, some apologists are still trying to find a loophole. You can twist all you like but he still says this in Matthew ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Matthew 24:29–31, 34 Now, of course, this is all nonsense, none of it ever happened it's all mythology, but it's what is in your bible. It's a plain reading. You really can't avoid that simple reading - all that happens while you here now listening to me saying it is alive. (alive? or a lie??) If your book takes 2,000 years of academic study to "interpret" what use is it to Joe public? What were all those people supposed to think for the last 2,000 years? But once again, you're picking a way through it that you prefer. Just like your no longer favored Mr. Lewis's opinion who you just threw under the bus because he didn't help you. So where do I begin, O Tangled one?
2,000 years after the alleged events, some apologists are still trying to find a loophole.
I am simply trying to be a good apologist...no apologies necessary. I believe that Jesus was an actual person and that He was closer to God than any other sage from any other culture in History. I believe that He is alive today and that He communes with (us) in our hearts and minds if we so accept such a close relationship. We are of course free to dismiss it. Perhaps we have really good counter-evidence to do so, but the real question is why anyone would not want such a relationship. This universe and the future of our species is too important to rely only upon human data and gathered psycho-social, psychological, and sociological "evidence" generated from the human species itself. And note that I highlighted the word ONLY. Of course, we need to be rational, reasonable, and fact-based. Of course, we don't need to fall for cultural myths from thousands of years ago without giving them a fair hearing. And that is what I am doing. GDR is also attempting to understand himself better through verbal exchange with individuals (collectively known as the EvC Peanut gallery) who have vastly different worldviews than he (and I)."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: Tell me more. This jumped out at me. It makes no sense that the Olivet discourse would be rewritten to better fit events until after the events had happened - yet we see exactly that in Luke. But that is what we see. How can you deny that? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy writes: I think that GDR respects you and the peanut gallery enough that he wants to form a consensus with you rather than fight you. He just struggles a bit to find the words that (he hopes) you will find agreeable enough to form a consensus with him and his belief. GDR writes: Either you're having a hard time keeping people's positions straight, or you're being purposefully irritating. You just keep repeating how you feel over and over again. That's not evidence, just a broken record. No one objects to anyone forming their own beliefs, but you've gone way beyond that. You've claimed objective reality for your beliefs, that there's evidence for them. Of course, it(The Bible) tells you nothing about what is true. If you read it again you'll see that it's not about what is true but about how subjective your beliefs are, how they're a product of the culture and religion in which you were raised, and not of evidence. You have acknowledged that the Bible is evidence...I, on the other hand, shoot from the hip. (or the lip ) Is it possible to ever form a consensus so that GDR and myself can join the peanut gallery? Of course, at that point none of us would have anyone to argue with and would have to find fresh meat! "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I’m sure I’ve discussed this before. The Olivet Discourse is the bit where Jesus is asked when the Herodian Temple buildings will be destroyed. Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Mark and Matthew are all but identical. Luke is different. Mark and Matthew say that the time to flee is when the “abomination of desolation” shows up. Luke says it’s when armies surround Jerusalem (which is a bit late for anyone in Jerusalem). No “abomination” showed up. Luke says that Jerusalem will be conquered and the inhabitants taken away. Neither Mark or Matthew mention any such thing. Of course the Romans did take Jerusalem and enslave many of the people who were caught there.
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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I think that GDR respects you and the peanut gallery enough that he wants to form a consensus with you rather than fight you. I'm not fighting GDR. I don't think Percy is fighting him either, although he is more critical. I just don't think GDR is making a lot of sense in this topic. But it's his life, and his beliefs so it's not up to me to object.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes:
So why don't you have go at untangling it?
Quite a bit to untangle here I believe that
Bad start, why should I care what you believe?
Of course, we need to be rational, reasonable, and fact-based.
So why aren't you being rational, reasonable, and fact-based? Why are you telling me what you believe like it matters to the discussion what you believe?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
tangle writes: Because my intuition tells me that tough times are ahead...for all of us, believer and non-believer alike. Granted my intuition is NOT fact-based, though I could make an argument defending my rationale for...what you call doom, doom, we are ALL doomed! We will hopefully survive this next great depression unless someone starts throwing nukes around (us included) but your nest egg will likely be cut in half...as will mine. So why aren't you being rational, reasonable, and fact-based? Why are you telling me what you believe like it matters to the discussion what you believe? So what does any of this have to do with a 2000-year-old myth? We defend the idea that our belief can and should stand side-by-side with your secular humanist rationality. If I can't trust my own intuition to at least some degree, I won't get far trusting ever changing data and random calculations.(speculations by the secular-minded)"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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If I can't trust my own intuition to at least some degree, I won't get far trusting ever changing data and random calculations.(speculations by the secular-minded) No, you can't trust your own intuition. None of us can. That is why we seek confirmation through others on everything, even our stupidities. And the ever changing data is a good thing. That means we are ever refining our understanding. We don't do random calculations. That's a Kleinmen thing. Science insists on especially rigorous treatment and testing of our models to ensure they conform to reality. And that means you can not defend the idea that your belief can and should stand side-by-side with secular humanist rationality. More, such shows why you provide no competition to secular humanist rationality.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
PaulK writes: You will note that despite being asked when the destruction will happen Jesus never actually mentions it in his reply - which leads me to conclude that it is not scheduled until the end of the events. Nevertheless as you can see the point is the fulfilment of Daniel’s prophecy. I would say that He doesn't say when it will happen for the simple reason He simply doesn't know. I would imagine that there would be numerous Jews at that time who could understand the political understandings from that time. They would know there was a strong sense of military rebellion and that the outcome was not likely to be a happy one if they went ahead with it. It isn't really about fulfilling Daniel but the destruction of the Temple would be a confirmation of it.
PaulK writes: Yes I've read Maccabees. It was 100 years of Jewish reign that didn't go as well as the Jewish nation hoped. I really don't get your point. It would make it even more likely that Jesus would predict that a violent revolution would end badly. Learn some history GDR. The Maccabean Revolt was earthly, successful and led to the creation of the Hasmonean Kingdom which was quite successful (eg conquering Edom) until the Romans moved in. Eventually it ended with the Romans taking over and installing Herod as their puppet leader.Incidentally it is interesting to note that the 7 brothers all died heroic deaths, talked about an eventual resurrection and yet when they were executed the movement simply died. They had achieved military success, ruled for 100 tears but that was it. The movement has always been celebrated but there wasn't any talk of acrrying it on. Without the resurrection of Jesus, that movement with no victories and a humiliating death would have died even more quickly. PaulK writes: Jesus is not in Daniel 7. He wasn’t even born until after the events. The “one like a son of man” is more likely meant to be Michael. Daniel 7 was a prophet who dreamed what is in that chapter. It was about a future event. Jesus certainly saw Himself in the role of the "Son of Man" as He referred to Himself that way many times.
PaulK writes: Which is how the Jews get (and keep) the privileged place they are assured of. God intervenes, the enemies of the Jews are defeated, there’s a new order in the world where the Jews have a special place. Try Zechariah 14: Yes that was the common thinking but it is not how Jesus or the NT writers saw it. Yes, the Zechariah quote is what the Jews hoped for. Yahweh was there god and nobody else's. The ancients all looked for a deity that would be with them in battle. Jesus embodied a very different god who was for the world.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
Because my intuition tells me that tough times are ahead...for all of us, believer and non-believer alike. Granted my intuition is NOT fact-based, though I could make an argument defending my rationale for...what you call doom, doom, we are ALL doomed! Can you give us an example of your intuition guiding you on the best decisions about future events that threaten our civilization that were not already common knowledge, like climate change, over population, over use of dwindling resources like clean water and soil, the insect apocalypse and invasive species.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
GDR writes: We've agreed that the Bible is evidence. We can reject or accept the evidence. WE simply form our own conclusions.Percy writes: You keep bouncing back and forth between "I have evidence" and "I know I have no evidence." You're not communicating any coherent consistent position. You agreed the Bible was evidence so that was all that I was using. Others have said that the Bible isn't evidence which makes no sense but that doesn't seem to matter. Give me the definition you want for "evidence" and I'll go with it.
Percy writes: What you know is that you have a truth that works for you, and I'm asking what more is it that you're seeking here, because if you're looking for agreement that your thinking is rational and evidence-based then you won't find it here. And EvC is not atypical when it comes to rational thinking. What does it take to be rational and evidence based because I haven't been able to see a lot of consistency in the various poste in this thread?
Percy writes: And since you believe both good and bad things are evidence of God, why do you always list only good things? Why not just say, "Mass shootings, poverty, disease, earthquakes and hurricanes, to name only a few, are evidence of God?" You claimed that the ability to make a choice between good and evil was God-given and therefore evidence of God, but who chooses between life and being randomly shot dead, between health and disease, between solid ground and an earthquake, between calm and a hurricane? I agree, that is a difficult question for Christians. I see God in those who genuinely want to see the world a better place, and respond to all of those things you mention with acts of kindness, mercy, love etc.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Percy writes:
Maybe instead of sending me to a site with a massive set of links to other sites you could explain in your words how it happened. The evolutionary basis for altruism is well established. There is a great deal of research: Google Scholar: evolution altruism Also of course it doesn't really matter anyway as your position assumes that the evolutionary process has nothing but mindless origins, which as you know I don't accept. Observing altruism as part of the evolutionary process works just as well for my belief is an evolutionary process is the result of an intelligence that is outside of our time and space.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
PaulK writes: But you quote it out of context and ignore the OT reference. That’s not what it says. That’s why I quoted it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
GDR writes: It isn't about getting our theology correct. it is about having a heart and mind that is not completely self focussed, but is about having enough compassion for others that you are prepared to act on that sense of compassion.ringo writes: If you see that in there then tell me how many sheep and how many goats He was talking about. Jesus doesn't seem to agree with you. He seems to be keeping score.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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