Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."

You still don't understand that a baby gets a copy of Mom's and Dad's genome. Both. If Mom has an adaptive mutation A in gene I and Dad has an adaptive mutation B in gene J, guess what can happen? Baby can get both mutations. You don't have to have mutation A happen in someone who already carries mutation B, or vice versa.Also, the frequency for A and B can exist at a frequency higher than 0.5 within the population if they are unlinked. You still can't seem to understand that. Reality insists differently. Heterozygosity applies to alleles for the same gene, not alleles for unlinked genes. You are the one who is applying the addition rule to unlinked genes, not I. If A and B are on separate chromosomes why would you even need a recombination event?You do realize that there is more than one chromosome, more than one gene, and that recombination events are extremely common within a chromosome, right? This is why genes that are on distant parts of the same chromosome are considered unlinked because there are about 1 to 3 crossover events per chromosome per generation which gives a very high chance of alleles switching chromosome copies if they are distant from each other on the same chromosome.There is no reason to do any math until you learn the basic concepts of sexual reproduction, diploidy, and meiosis. It works because only genes located close to each other on a chromosome are linked to one another. The vast majority of genes are independent in diploid organisms. I understand both asexual and sexual reproduction just fine which is why I understand where they differ. You don't seem to understand how each differs from each other. You keep applying the concepts from asexual reproduction when they don't apply to sexual reproduction.In bacteria, there is no crossover between copies of bacterial genomes because they are asexual and haploid. HGT does occur between bacteria on occasion and there are plasmids, but let's not complicate matters at this point. Let's say mutation I in gene X occurs in one bacteria in the population and mutation J happens in gene Y in a different bacteria in the same population. What would need to happen to get both mutations in the same individual in this case? We would have to have a repeat of the mutation in each of the lineages. However, the fittest of I and J could drive the other mutation to extinction in the mean time. All of this is very true in asexual populations.Is this the case in sexual populations? NO, not in the case of unlinked genes. Do you know why? Because descendants of those carrying mutation I and J can mate and have offspring with BOTH MUTATIONS. The mutations doesn't have to happen again. We don't even need the math. It is all explained in the pictures I have given you for combining mom's and dad's dna, linked/unlinked genes, and cross-overs.

Kleinman:

---

You have one subset of the population that has beneficial allele A at one genetic locus, a second subset of the population the population that has beneficial allele B at a different genetic locus, and the remainder of the population has neither allele A nor allele B.

Taq:

---

Then let's look at achondroplasia which is caused by mutations in the FGFR3 gene and cystic fibrosis which is caused by mutations in the CFTR gene. More than 99% of people have the healthy allele for both and only an extreme few have both cystic fibrosis and dwarfism. So let's do the math:
​
0.99A + 0.99B + 0.0000001C != 1
​
Your math doesn't work.​

---

---

Dumb cluck, you have to subtract out the intersection of subsets when using the addition rule, otherwise, you are adding the same members twice.

Kleinman:

---

I know well enough that these frequencies are not mutually exclusive, you don't.

Taq:

---

You just said they were mutually exclusive.

---

---

For the case I'm doing, they are mutually exclusive, for the case you are doing, they aren't mutually exclusive. Your survey of mathematics course really doesn't cut it for you biologists.

Kleinman:

---

You have one subset of the population that has beneficial allele A at one genetic locus, a second subset of the population the population that has beneficial allele B at a different genetic locus,

Taq:

---

Can you give me a single example of two mutations in two different unlinked genes that are mutually exclusive?

---

---

Why? Do you think that will explain the reproductive fitness differences between humans and chimps? Why don't you learn how to correctly apply one of the simplest rules of probability theory, the addition rule? Then you will have a chance of correctly doing frequency calculations for different variants in a population, whether the subsets of the populations are mutually exclusive (where the subsets don't intersect) or where the subsets are arbitrary (the subsets of the populations do intersect). I know I'm asking a lot from a biologist whose only training in mathematics is a survey of mathematics course.

You need to understand the system before you can apply maths (nod to our UK particpants) to it. It is your lack of understanding of diploidy, multiple chromosomes, gene linkage, meiosis, and sexual reproduction that causes you to misapply the maths.

Your equation doesn't have the subtraction of the intersection. It just has the frequencies of both mutations.Define the following variables:
n – is the total population size.
nA – is the number of members in the population with beneficial allele A.
nB – is the number of members in the population with beneficial allele B.
nC – is the number of members in the population that have neither beneficial allele A nor beneficial allele B.
​
In addition, we have the following condition: nA + nB + nC = n.
​
And the frequency of each of the variants are:
f_A = nA/n
f_B = nB/n
f_C = nC/nWhere's the subtraction? It's not there. Then why do you keep insisting that the frequency of mutations at unlinked genes must add up to 1? Will you now admit that they don't have to add up to one? Why would I apply the addition rule when you yourself are saying that it doesn't apply?

Kleinman:

---

Both the Kishony and Lenski experiments exist.

Taq:

---

Diploidy, sexual reproduction, and meiosis also exist.

---

---

Here's your chance to explain how ploidy, sexual reproduction, and meiosis affect DNA evolution.

Kleinman:

---

Do you think there is no way to explain the behavior of these experiments mathematically?

Taq:

---

What you still can't seem to understand is that the mathematics of asexual reproduction don't always apply to sexual reproduction.

---

---

How do ploidy, sexual reproduction, and meiosis affect DNA evolution? DNA evolution is how populations diversify the gene pool. How does this differ between asexual replicators and sexual replicators?

Kleinman:

---

And what is the difference between microevolution and macroevolution?

Taq:

---

Which of the genetic differences between humans and chimps do you think microevolution could not produce, and why?

---

---

What you are having difficulty accepting is that the number of replications available to humans and chimps only allows for a small amount of genetic diversification. And these small population sizes only allow for descent with modification and adaptation of a tiny number of adaptive mutations to account for the reproductive fitness differences between humans and chimps. This is why you are taking the physically and mathematically irrational stance that multiple alleles can fix simultaneously so that recombination can somehow overcome this deficiency.

As I said, I'm no mathematician - I'm a few credits short of a degree in mathematics. (And the mathematics that I did take was not toward a degree in mathematics.)As for Taq, I have not taken a biology class since high school, and unlike you, I do have respect for biologists.

Nobody is trying to "impose" morals on you. We're just pointing out that you don't have any.

Kleinman:

---

I expect you to make a highschool level mathematical blunder, but Taq? I thought Taq had a little bit better understanding of introductory probability theory.

Taq:

---

You need to understand the system before you can apply maths (nod to our UK particpants) to it. It is your lack of understanding of diploidy, multiple chromosomes, gene linkage, meiosis, and sexual reproduction that causes you to misapply the maths.

---

---

Is it your system to use the addition rule improperly? And we are still waiting for you to explain how diploidy, multiple chromosomes, gene linkage, meiosis, and sexual reproduction alter DNA evolution. DNA evolution is replication with mutation. That is how populations diversify the gene pool. Show how your list changes the DNA evolution process. You won't because it doesn't.

Maybe so. But YOU are not qualified to draw that conclusion.And Kleinman sees fit to criticize the work of every biologist on earth. What does that make him?

You're shooting yourself in the foot. Your supposed probability calculation has to be based on a model.

Kleinman (and to whomever),Look at the picture below. Look at the last example of genes on separate chromosomes. Even though recombination will occur within each chromosome, is that even needed in order to get independent association of these alleles? No. They are on separate chromosomes. You can have 6 possible combinations in a given gamete if the carrier is heterozygous at both genes:5A/6A
5A/6B
5B/6A
5B/6BHow many combinations can you get with two gametes with the same mixture of alleles at two unlinked genes?What would this look like if one parent is 5AA and 6BB and the other parent is 5BB and 6AA? Could their offspring have a mixture of alleles at both genes without a recombination event needed? (The answer is yes, in case you were wondering)

Kleinman:

---

Dumb cluck, you have to subtract out the intersection of subsets when using the addition rule, otherwise, you are adding the same members twice.

Taq:

---

Your equation doesn't have the subtraction of the intersection. It just has the frequencies of both mutations.
​
Define the following variables:
n – is the total population size.
nA – is the number of members in the population with beneficial allele A.
nB – is the number of members in the population with beneficial allele B.
nC – is the number of members in the population that have neither beneficial allele A nor beneficial allele B.
​
In addition, we have the following condition: nA + nB + nC = n.
​
And the frequency of each of the variants are:
f_A = nA/n
f_B = nB/n
f_C = nC/n
​
Where's the subtraction? It's not there.

---

---

There is no intersection of these subsets, they are mutually exclusive. If you think there is an intersection of these subsets, point it out.

Kleinman:

---

For the case I'm doing, they are mutually exclusive, for the case you are doing, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Taq:

---

Then why do you keep insisting that the frequency of mutations at unlinked genes must add up to 1? Will you now admit that they don't have to add up to one?

---

---

Dumb dumb, if you sum up all possible frequencies of different variants in a population, it always has to equal 1. It doesn't matter whether the alleles are linked or not. Take your seat on the C- team bench.

Kleinman:

---

Why don't you learn how to correctly apply one of the simplest rules of probability theory, the addition rule?

Taq:

---

Why would I apply the addition rule when you yourself are saying that it doesn't apply?

---

---

Silly boy!

Nobody is suggesting that it does. It's the natural selection of random changes that causes evolution. And it's the deterministic nature of chemistry that causes abiogenesis.

Taq:

---

Kleinman (and to whomever),

​

Look at the picture below. Look at the last example of genes on separate chromosomes. Even though recombination will occur within each chromosome, is that even needed in order to get independent association of these alleles? No. They are on separate chromosomes. You can have 6 possible combinations in a given gamete if the carrier is heterozygous at both genes:

​

5A/6A
5A/6B
5B/6A
5B/6B

​

How many combinations can you get with two gametes with the same mixture of alleles at two unlinked genes?

​

What would this look like if one parent is 5AA and 6BB and the other parent is 5BB and 6AA? Could their offspring have a mixture of alleles at both genes without a recombination event needed? (The answer is yes, in case you were wondering)

​

---

How does all of this affect DNA evolution?

Chemistry is not random chance. There's a reason why we have H₂O and not H₉O.And there's still a cookie in it for you if you can figure out why I said 9.