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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 886 of 2926 (900389)
10-27-2022 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 883 by Dredge
10-27-2022 9:26 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
All I know is, according to the mathematics of God,
the probability of natural abiogenesis occurring is less than zero.
I was unaware that God had His own mathematics. I DO know that this whole idea of chance and a "cosmic lottery" is not disciplined thinking. Chance cannot nor ever will be able to "create" anything. Chance is an improper concept. Things either happen or they don't. It is impossible to calculate probability (a definite numerical value) in regard to macro events such as creation/evolution.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by Dredge, posted 10-27-2022 9:26 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 10:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 913 by ringo, posted 10-27-2022 11:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 887 of 2926 (900390)
10-27-2022 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 875 by Theodoric
10-26-2022 11:40 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Theodoric:
Yup. He is one of the worst we have had in a long time. He aspires to be a world class crank, but he is reduced to trolling our humble little forum.
I'm just giving you atheists a chance to tell us, religious people, how you don't impose your morals on others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 875 by Theodoric, posted 10-26-2022 11:40 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 907 by ringo, posted 10-27-2022 11:44 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 888 of 2926 (900391)
10-27-2022 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 876 by Dredge
10-26-2022 11:41 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
dwise1:
Both Dredge and Kleinman have decided that the model for abiogenesis would be winning the lottery many times in a row.
Dredge:
I don't recall ever offering winning the lottery many times in a row as a model for abiogenesis. Please show me where I did that.

There is nothing wrong with making an analogy of winning the lottery many times in a row as a model of abiogenesis since the winning of a lottery occurs by random chance. Of course, if dwise1 is abandoning the notion that life can't arise by random processes (random chemical reactions), it will be the first sensible thing that he has said. The joint probability of both of these is governed by the multiplication rule.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Dredge, posted 10-26-2022 11:41 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 915 by ringo, posted 10-27-2022 11:57 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 889 of 2926 (900394)
10-27-2022 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 880 by dwise1
10-27-2022 2:47 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
[dwise1]Knowing how natural processes work, we can reconstruct an overall framework for something like abiogenesis[/qs] "Dreamer, you know you are a dreamer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer ...
Dreamer, you stupid little dreamer
"
From Dreamer, a song by Supertramp (1974)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 880 by dwise1, posted 10-27-2022 2:47 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 890 of 2926 (900395)
10-27-2022 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 880 by dwise1
10-27-2022 2:47 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:
I don't recall ever offering winning the lottery many times in a row as a model for abiogenesis. Please show me where I did that.
dwise1:
Your constant idiotic blather does make it difficult to figure out just what the hell you're talking about. And my standard question for all creationists, "What the hell are you talking about?", has had no effect.

You are so slow to understand. You use the multiplication rule to compute joint probabilities of random events occurring whether they are you winning multiple lotteries or a sequence of random chemical reactions that could create a protein or strand of DNA (or RNA). You have a much, much, much, higher probability of winning multiple lotteries. That's your cue for telling us we are lying creationists and that you never lie or do evil. Oh, and while you are at it, can you give us some experimental evidence that verifies your mathematical model of abiogenesis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 880 by dwise1, posted 10-27-2022 2:47 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 891 of 2926 (900396)
10-27-2022 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 882 by Theodoric
10-27-2022 8:29 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:
??? I have no idea what you talking about.
Theodoric:
and that is why you should slink away back under your rock. You have a propensity not to know what people are talking about.

And you do know what we are talking about? Let's make it simple to give you the best chance of understanding what we are talking about. The reason that abiogenesis and universal common descent are not possible is the multiplication rule of probabilities. There is no natural selection to improve the probability of abiogenesis occurring and natural selection doesn't have sufficient population size to give a reasonable probability that universal common descent is possible. And why should we go away? Someone needs to explain to you these physical and mathematical facts of life as well as explain to you that you do impose your morals on others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 882 by Theodoric, posted 10-27-2022 8:29 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 892 of 2926 (900397)
10-27-2022 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 880 by dwise1
10-27-2022 2:47 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
dwise1 writes:
Knowing how natural processes work, we can reconstruct an overall framework for something like abiogenesis
"Dreamer, you know you are a dreamer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer ...
Dreamer, you stupid little dreamer
"
From Dreamer, a song by Supertramp (1974)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 880 by dwise1, posted 10-27-2022 2:47 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 893 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 9:59 AM Dredge has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 893 of 2926 (900399)
10-27-2022 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 892 by Dredge
10-27-2022 9:58 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
When humans dream they imagine. When God dreams, He creates.
I would caution you against referring to dwise1 as stupid, however. I respect his intelligence and his experience.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by Dredge, posted 10-27-2022 9:58 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 941 by Dredge, posted 10-27-2022 2:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 894 of 2926 (900401)
10-27-2022 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 886 by Phat
10-27-2022 9:47 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:
All I know is, according to the mathematics of God,
the probability of natural abiogenesis occurring is less than zero.
Phat:
I was unaware that God had His own mathematics. I DO know that this whole idea of chance and a "cosmic lottery" is not disciplined thinking. Chance cannot nor ever will be able to "create" anything. Chance is an improper concept. Things either happen or they don't. It is impossible to calculate probability (a definite numerical value) in regard to macro events such as creation/evolution.

Are you claiming that it is impossible to mathematically model descent with modification? Both the Kishony and Lenski experiments exist. Do you think there is no way to explain the behavior of these experiments mathematically? And what is the difference between microevolution and macroevolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 9:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 897 by Taq, posted 10-27-2022 10:45 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 895 of 2926 (900406)
10-27-2022 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 864 by Kleinman
10-26-2022 7:02 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
And how do crossing over and recombination create new alleles?
Show me where I said that.
We are still waiting for your mathematical explanation of how two different adaptive alleles A and B at different genetic loci in different members of a population end up in an offspring.
It's called sexual reproduction. Mommy has A and Daddy has B.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Kleinman, posted 10-26-2022 7:02 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 900 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 11:15 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 896 of 2926 (900408)
10-27-2022 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 865 by Kleinman
10-26-2022 7:04 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
You have one subset of the population that has beneficial allele A at one genetic locus, a second subset of the population the population that has beneficial allele B at a different genetic locus, and the remainder of the population has neither allele A nor allele B.
Then let's look at achondroplasia which is caused by mutations in the FGFR3 gene and cystic fibrosis which is caused by mutations in the CFTR gene. More than 99% of people have the healthy allele for both and only an extreme few have both cystic fibrosis and dwarfism. So let's do the math:
0.99A + 0.99B + 0.0000001C != 1
Your math doesn't work.
I know well enough that these frequencies are not mutually exclusive, you don't.
You just said they were mutually exclusive.
You have one subset of the population that has beneficial allele A at one genetic locus, a second subset of the population the population that has beneficial allele B at a different genetic locus,
Can you give me a single example of two mutations in two different unlinked genes that are mutually exclusive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by Kleinman, posted 10-26-2022 7:04 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 902 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 11:18 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 897 of 2926 (900409)
10-27-2022 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 894 by Kleinman
10-27-2022 10:04 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Both the Kishony and Lenski experiments exist.
Diploidy, sexual reproduction, and meiosis also exist.
Do you think there is no way to explain the behavior of these experiments mathematically?
What you still can't seem to understand is that the mathematics of asexual reproduction don't always apply to sexual reproduction.
And what is the difference between microevolution and macroevolution?
Which of the genetic differences between humans and chimps do you think microevolution could not produce, and why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 894 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 10:04 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 11:39 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 898 of 2926 (900410)
10-27-2022 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 862 by Kleinman
10-26-2022 6:55 PM


Re: Quiz for Kleinman
Kleinman writes:
Are you claiming that the A and B alleles end up being linked or not linked?
Unlinked. What would this mean for how each allele moves through population now that they are not tied together?
In the Kishony and Lenski experiments all of the genes are linked because they are on the same chromosome, the organisms are haploid, and there is no crossover between copies of genomes. In the case of diploid, sexually reproducing organisms this isn't the case. Therefore, you no longer have the case where the fittest allele in the entire genome drives natural selection.
I'm already assuming the best possible case where the A and B mating will always give an AB offspring.
Does that ever happen in the Lenski and Kishony experiments? Do you think this process may have an affect on what alleles can be selected for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by Kleinman, posted 10-26-2022 6:55 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 899 of 2926 (900411)
10-27-2022 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 866 by Kleinman
10-26-2022 7:28 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
For example, you want to calculate the probability that a lactase persistance mutation occurs on a member that already has the lower melanin production in higher altitudes mutation.
Why would I want to do that? The mutation for lactase persistence can occur in one individual and the mutation for lower melanin production can occur in another individual. Later, their descendants can mate and have offspring that have both mutations. In fact, we see this all of the time in the human population.
Why do you still not understand how sexual reproduction works?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by Kleinman, posted 10-26-2022 7:28 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 900 of 2926 (900412)
10-27-2022 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 895 by Taq
10-27-2022 10:36 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
And how do crossing over and recombination create new alleles?
Taq:
Show me where I said that.

I'm just trying to make sure you understand that DNA evolution and random recombination are different physical processes with different mathematical behaviors. And it is good to see that you understand that recombination without error cannot create new alleles, only DNA evolution can do that.
Kleinman:
We are still waiting for your mathematical explanation of how two different adaptive alleles A and B at different genetic loci in different members of a population end up in an offspring.
Taq:
It's called sexual reproduction. Mommy has A and Daddy has B.

What happens if you only have one Mommy with A and one Daddy with B in a population of millions? How does your dating service work? That is your cue to claim that A and B variants both fix simultaneously. Do you know about the Desai experiments? They are similar to the Lenski experiments except Desai uses yeast with both asexual and sexual reproduction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by Taq, posted 10-27-2022 10:36 AM Taq has not replied

  
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