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Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Dredge writes: I was unaware that God had His own mathematics. I DO know that this whole idea of chance and a "cosmic lottery" is not disciplined thinking. Chance cannot nor ever will be able to "create" anything. Chance is an improper concept. Things either happen or they don't. It is impossible to calculate probability (a definite numerical value) in regard to macro events such as creation/evolution. All I know is, according to the mathematics of God,the probability of natural abiogenesis occurring is less than zero. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Theodoric:I'm just giving you atheists a chance to tell us, religious people, how you don't impose your morals on others.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
dwise1:There is nothing wrong with making an analogy of winning the lottery many times in a row as a model of abiogenesis since the winning of a lottery occurs by random chance. Of course, if dwise1 is abandoning the notion that life can't arise by random processes (random chemical reactions), it will be the first sensible thing that he has said. The joint probability of both of these is governed by the multiplication rule.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
[dwise1]Knowing how natural processes work, we can reconstruct an overall framework for something like abiogenesis[/qs]
"Dreamer, you know you are a dreamer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no! I said dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer ... Dreamer, you stupid little dreamer" From Dreamer, a song by Supertramp (1974)
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Dredge:You are so slow to understand. You use the multiplication rule to compute joint probabilities of random events occurring whether they are you winning multiple lotteries or a sequence of random chemical reactions that could create a protein or strand of DNA (or RNA). You have a much, much, much, higher probability of winning multiple lotteries. That's your cue for telling us we are lying creationists and that you never lie or do evil. Oh, and while you are at it, can you give us some experimental evidence that verifies your mathematical model of abiogenesis?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Dredge:And you do know what we are talking about? Let's make it simple to give you the best chance of understanding what we are talking about. The reason that abiogenesis and universal common descent are not possible is the multiplication rule of probabilities. There is no natural selection to improve the probability of abiogenesis occurring and natural selection doesn't have sufficient population size to give a reasonable probability that universal common descent is possible. And why should we go away? Someone needs to explain to you these physical and mathematical facts of life as well as explain to you that you do impose your morals on others.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
dwise1 writes:
"Dreamer, you know you are a dreamer Knowing how natural processes work, we can reconstruct an overall framework for something like abiogenesisWell can you put your hands in your head, oh no! I said dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer ... Dreamer, you stupid little dreamer"From Dreamer, a song by Supertramp (1974)
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
When humans dream they imagine. When God dreams, He creates.
I would caution you against referring to dwise1 as stupid, however. I respect his intelligence and his experience."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Dredge:Are you claiming that it is impossible to mathematically model descent with modification? Both the Kishony and Lenski experiments exist. Do you think there is no way to explain the behavior of these experiments mathematically? And what is the difference between microevolution and macroevolution?
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Taq Member Posts: 9970 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Kleinman writes:
And how do crossing over and recombination create new alleles?
Show me where I said that.
We are still waiting for your mathematical explanation of how two different adaptive alleles A and B at different genetic loci in different members of a population end up in an offspring. It's called sexual reproduction. Mommy has A and Daddy has B.
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Taq Member Posts: 9970 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Kleinman writes: You have one subset of the population that has beneficial allele A at one genetic locus, a second subset of the population the population that has beneficial allele B at a different genetic locus, and the remainder of the population has neither allele A nor allele B. Then let's look at achondroplasia which is caused by mutations in the FGFR3 gene and cystic fibrosis which is caused by mutations in the CFTR gene. More than 99% of people have the healthy allele for both and only an extreme few have both cystic fibrosis and dwarfism. So let's do the math: 0.99A + 0.99B + 0.0000001C != 1 Your math doesn't work.
I know well enough that these frequencies are not mutually exclusive, you don't.
You just said they were mutually exclusive.
You have one subset of the population that has beneficial allele A at one genetic locus, a second subset of the population the population that has beneficial allele B at a different genetic locus, Can you give me a single example of two mutations in two different unlinked genes that are mutually exclusive?
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Taq Member Posts: 9970 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Kleinman writes: Both the Kishony and Lenski experiments exist. Diploidy, sexual reproduction, and meiosis also exist.
Do you think there is no way to explain the behavior of these experiments mathematically? What you still can't seem to understand is that the mathematics of asexual reproduction don't always apply to sexual reproduction.
And what is the difference between microevolution and macroevolution? Which of the genetic differences between humans and chimps do you think microevolution could not produce, and why?
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Taq Member Posts: 9970 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Kleinman writes: Are you claiming that the A and B alleles end up being linked or not linked? Unlinked. What would this mean for how each allele moves through population now that they are not tied together? In the Kishony and Lenski experiments all of the genes are linked because they are on the same chromosome, the organisms are haploid, and there is no crossover between copies of genomes. In the case of diploid, sexually reproducing organisms this isn't the case. Therefore, you no longer have the case where the fittest allele in the entire genome drives natural selection.
I'm already assuming the best possible case where the A and B mating will always give an AB offspring. Does that ever happen in the Lenski and Kishony experiments? Do you think this process may have an affect on what alleles can be selected for?
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Taq Member Posts: 9970 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Kleinman writes: For example, you want to calculate the probability that a lactase persistance mutation occurs on a member that already has the lower melanin production in higher altitudes mutation. Why would I want to do that? The mutation for lactase persistence can occur in one individual and the mutation for lower melanin production can occur in another individual. Later, their descendants can mate and have offspring that have both mutations. In fact, we see this all of the time in the human population. Why do you still not understand how sexual reproduction works?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:I'm just trying to make sure you understand that DNA evolution and random recombination are different physical processes with different mathematical behaviors. And it is good to see that you understand that recombination without error cannot create new alleles, only DNA evolution can do that. Kleinman:
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