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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 661 of 2926 (900006)
10-22-2022 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by dwise1
10-22-2022 12:57 AM


Re: Not Just Math, Kleinman Doesn't Know Anything
dwise1 writes:
An actual creationist would believe that The Creator created The Creation as it is and as it works.
Thus, according to dwise1 logic, an actual Christian would believe that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead by using natural processes.
As Mr. Spock used to say, "Fascinating ... but illogical."
Since The Creator created those very physical processes producing life from non-life, then abiogenesis would actually serve as witness for The Creator.
An atheist preaching about God's creation ... you're a fake atheist!!
But willfully stupid fake creationists like you insist that abiogenesis through natural processes disprove God.
Really? I didn't know that.
Btw, I'm not a "willfully" stupid creationist ... I was born stupid.
Learn the difference between single-step selection and cumulative selection -- refer to my pages starting at MONKEY for a more complete explanation
Sorry, but I've better things to do than read atheist fairy tales about how life began.
which I have absolutely no doubt that you are too afraid of to read
Yep, I would find your fairy tales terrifying.
I really do wish, though, that you fucking willfully stupid creationists will one day finally pull your collective heads out and wake up.
Thank you for your kind wishes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by dwise1, posted 10-22-2022 12:57 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 682 by ringo, posted 10-22-2022 12:32 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 662 of 2926 (900007)
10-22-2022 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by dwise1
10-22-2022 2:05 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
dwise1 writes:
So then you are defining "the mathematics of God" as complete and utter bullshit which is not only utterly false but also completely useless.
Well of course you think the mathematics of God is "complete and utter bullshit ... utterly false ... completely useless" - you're an atheist.
You mock what you don't understand and what God has hidden from you.
God Herself
Please keep your feminist crap to yourself.
Feminism is demonic poison.
If you know nothing about what you are fighting against, then how could you ever possibly hope to fight against it?
That makes you nothing more than the most incredibly stupid fucking idiot of all time.
Just roll over and let your enemy disembowel you right on the spot. And rightfully so!
You have absolutely no desire to oppose any opponent! You just want to be killed off!
Pathetic!
I can't believe this much entertainment is free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by dwise1, posted 10-22-2022 2:05 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by vimesey, posted 10-22-2022 7:58 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 683 by ringo, posted 10-22-2022 12:37 PM Dredge has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 663 of 2926 (900010)
10-22-2022 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 662 by Dredge
10-22-2022 6:12 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Feminism is demonic poison.
Your entertainment value has vanished with this.
You're a vile human being. My engagement with you is at an end.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by Dredge, posted 10-22-2022 6:12 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by AZPaul3, posted 10-22-2022 8:24 AM vimesey has replied
 Message 670 by Dredge, posted 10-22-2022 10:01 AM vimesey has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 664 of 2926 (900011)
10-22-2022 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 663 by vimesey
10-22-2022 7:58 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
You have to remember you are talking to a meat-cracker eating catholic. Of course you will find misogyny. These guys invented it. Another evil perpetrated by god and Her retinue of demons.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by vimesey, posted 10-22-2022 7:58 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by vimesey, posted 10-22-2022 8:43 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 665 of 2926 (900013)
10-22-2022 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 664 by AZPaul3
10-22-2022 8:24 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Yep - and in Australia, misogyny is one of the main national pastimes, as I understand it.
Australia’s above-average sexism highlighted in global report

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by AZPaul3, posted 10-22-2022 8:24 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Dredge, posted 10-22-2022 10:27 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 666 of 2926 (900014)
10-22-2022 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 650 by AZPaul3
10-21-2022 11:02 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
AZPaul3:
You didn't have to prove me right so quickly. I thought you might want to hide more weenies first.

Yes, as i said, they are a publishing house. They publish journals. They do not create them, edit them or review them.
Silly boy, you left out the vanity journal part of your claim.
AZPaul3:
You also have a group of detractors over at Google Groups, talk.origins. They know your math is erroneous, your observations bogus, just as we concluded. They didn't like your personality either.

https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/cUFAn6vukD4

You're a failed star on both forums.
You are talking about an atheist physician that runs studies for the World Health Organisation searching for a durable treatment for malaria and couldn't figure out why his two-drug combination therapy failed. It was his failure that inspired the writing of this paper:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Too bad biologists failed to explain to him how drug resistance evolves.
AZPaul3:
Do you have any positive responses to any of your papers? Where are the glowing reviews of your genius breakthroughs? As staggeringly brilliant as you say your work is, redirecting all of science onto the proper probability models, there should be legions of testimonials. Where are they? You hide those weenies too?
I've already given you positive responses, pay attention. It takes time to explain why universal common descent is not true for biologists that are poorly trained in mathematics and physics. That's why biologists have failed to correctly explain why drug resistance evolves and cancer treatments fail. Biologists don't understand how descent with modification works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by AZPaul3, posted 10-21-2022 11:02 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 751 by Dredge, posted 10-23-2022 2:37 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 667 of 2926 (900015)
10-22-2022 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 653 by nwr
10-21-2022 11:28 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
AZPaul3:
You also have a group of detractors over at Google Groups, talk.origins. They know your math is erroneous, your observations bogus, just as we concluded. They didn't like your personality either.

https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/cUFAn6vukD4
nwr:
Good find.

He has also tried at discourse.peacefulscience.org and a post at Pandas Thumb was opened to allow him to argue in the comments there.

It seems to be widely recognized that he is a crank. Nobody (except creationists) takes him seriously.

So, the mathematician that doesn't do the mathematics of biology thinks that Joshua Swamidass's claim that humans and chimps are related using the mathematics of neutral evolution and Joe Felsenstein does his mathematics of inferential phylogenetics by nonrandom sampling of his data is the way to prove universal common descent? Try doing the math nwr. if you can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by nwr, posted 10-21-2022 11:28 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by nwr, posted 10-22-2022 10:59 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 668 of 2926 (900017)
10-22-2022 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by Tanypteryx
10-22-2022 12:49 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
AZPaul3:
You also have a group of detractors over at Google Groups, talk.origins. They know your math is erroneous, your observations bogus, just as we concluded. They didn't like your personality either.

https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/cUFAn6vukD4
nwr:
Good find.
Tanypteryx:
Good to know, indeed.

I think this is his third pass through EvC and as I remember now his message and manner hasn't changed. It doesn't surprise me that there are other forums where his work has earned skepticism rather than serious consideration.

When he said "National Library of Medicine", a light went off and had kind of a deja vu flash. I had looked at info about the library and there were some interesting critical reviews of the library's poor quality vetting, in recent years, because they're overwhelmed with submissions. The NLM is the world's largest repository of medical information, and Kleinman's 3 articles are mostly unnoticed amidst millions of others.


Don't blame me if biologists are slow learning why drug resistance evolves or why cancer treatments fail. If biologists had some descent training in math and physics, they could explain how descent with modification works. At least Taq now understands, you, Tany is quite a bit slower. You know Tany, I wrote a couple of paragraphs to help novices like you to understand how descent with modification works. Here it is:
Kleinman:
Here's a simple analogy to understand natural selection in an adaptation process.
Consider if for your family to survive that your family needs to win two lotteries. And the probability of winning one lottery is 1 in a million, and the probability of winning the other lottery is 1 in a million. For you to win both lotteries, that probability is 1 in a million times 1 in a million equals 1 in a trillion, a very low probability indeed. But let's say, you win one of those lotteries. And because of this, you are a very wealthy man and you can raise a very large family. And all your descendants start buying tickets to the second lottery. As soon as you have enough descendants, there will be a high probability that one of your descendants wins that second lottery for your family.
The probability of an adaptive mutation occurring on some variant in a population depends on the number of replications that variant does and the mutation rate, nothing else. There are lots of factors that affect that variant from doing the necessary number of replications for the next adaptive mutation. Competition is one of those factors. It is also possible that a single adaptive mutation does not exist for the given selection conditions. But it all comes down to the fact that the number of replications and the mutation rate determine that probability. And adaptive evolutionary events don't add, they are linked by the multiplication rule as are your chances of winning two lotteries.
Understand rubberband?
nwr:
It seems to be widely recognized that he is a crank. Nobody (except creationists) takes him seriously.
Tanypteryx:
That seems like what happened on his prior visits here. This time it took me a while remember him from earlier, and he seems a lot more pissed at biologists because we all think he's a crank.

ABE: This will give me something to mull over on the road tomorrow and when I get home I want to go read about their interactions with him at other discussion groups.

While you are mulling, why don't you mull over how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail? You might actually learn how descent with modification works. Taq finally understands. When are the rest of you biologists going to figure it out?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-22-2022 12:49 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-22-2022 8:48 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 669 of 2926 (900018)
10-22-2022 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by Theodoric
10-22-2022 12:51 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Theodoric:
Evaluating Alan Kleinman's arguments
Felsenstein booted me from his forum because I told him he was going to be held accountable for his blunders. Felsenstein doesn't like hearing that. Felsenstein refuses to do the mathematics for the Kishony and Lenski experiments. He says it would take too long. Doing the mathematics of those two experiments is not much more than homework problems. If you don't correlate your mathematical models with experimental evidence is the formula for GIGO and that's what Felsenstein is doing. His biggest mathematical blunder is not random sampling his data when doing his inferential phylogenetics. If nwr is really a mathematician, he should understand that is a beginner student type blunder. But nwr doesn't do the mathematics of biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2022 12:51 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by AZPaul3, posted 10-22-2022 10:09 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 670 of 2926 (900022)
10-22-2022 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 663 by vimesey
10-22-2022 7:58 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Hilarious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by vimesey, posted 10-22-2022 7:58 AM vimesey has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 671 of 2926 (900023)
10-22-2022 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 669 by Kleinman
10-22-2022 9:44 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Felsenstein refuses to do the mathematics for the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
Obsessed Johnny Onenote.
I've already given you positive responses, pay attention.
No you haven't. All you have given us is disingenuous excuses and lies.
You cannot provide any positive feedback from the science community on your drivel. The community has rejected your analysis and has ignored you since.
Biologists don't understand how descent with modification works.
Of course that makes you a martyr and a hero. The know-nothing world-wide discipline of thousands of biologists are all wrong. Only you are right.
You're an idiot. No one accepts your crap. You are reduced to shouting silently into the void. How many forums have rejected your presence? Include EvC.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by Kleinman, posted 10-22-2022 9:44 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by Kleinman, posted 10-22-2022 11:45 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 672 of 2926 (900025)
10-22-2022 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 665 by vimesey
10-22-2022 8:43 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
 
vimesey writes:
in Australia, misogyny is one of the main national pastimes, as I understand it.
Australia’s above-average sexism highlighted in global report
That's pretty funny. Are you so clueless as to believe everything a bunch of mad feminists tell you? (Actually "mad feminists" is a tautology - all feminists are mad.)
Speaking of misogyny, feminism hates women so much that it wants to turn women into something they're not. Is there anything more unnatural, insane and satanic than feminism?
"The feminists hate me, don’t they? And I don’t blame them. For I hate feminism. It is poison."
Margaret Thatcher, former Prime Minster of the United Kingdom
Margaret Thatcher: The Glass-Ceiling Shatterer Who Thought Feminism Was 'Poison' - Ms. Magazine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by vimesey, posted 10-22-2022 8:43 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 673 by AZPaul3, posted 10-22-2022 10:30 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 673 of 2926 (900026)
10-22-2022 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 672 by Dredge
10-22-2022 10:27 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Is there anything more unnatural, insane and satanic than feminism?
The catholic church. The greatest evil on Earth.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Dredge, posted 10-22-2022 10:27 AM Dredge has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 674 of 2926 (900028)
10-22-2022 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 667 by Kleinman
10-22-2022 9:35 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
So, the mathematician that doesn't do the mathematics of biology thinks that Joshua Swamidass's claim that humans and chimps are related using the mathematics of neutral evolution and Joe Felsenstein does his mathematics of inferential phylogenetics by nonrandom sampling of his data is the way to prove universal common descent?
Stop trying to tell me what I think. Your incompetence at mind reading is exceeded only by your incompetence at understanding evolution.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Kleinman, posted 10-22-2022 9:35 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Kleinman, posted 10-22-2022 11:46 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 675 of 2926 (900031)
10-22-2022 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by AZPaul3
10-22-2022 10:09 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Felsenstein refuses to do the mathematics for the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
AZPaul3:
Obsessed Johnny Onenote.

At least I have a note, biologists don't. And I don't blame biologists for not doing the mathematics for the Kishony and Lenski experiments. Why would they want to produce evidence that universal common descent is not possible? Of course, if you think that universal common descent is possible, present the mathematical and experimental evidence for your belief. You won't and Taq knows why.
Kleinman:
I've already given you positive responses, pay attention.
AZPaul3:
No you haven't. All you have given us is disingenuous excuses and lies.

You cannot provide any positive feedback from the science community on your drivel. The community has rejected your analysis and has ignored you since.

It doesn't help if I repeat myself to you, you are just to slow a learner. Just because biologists don't understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution doesn't make my mathematical explanation of experiments such as Kishony's and Lenski's wrong. They (and you) just refuse to accept the mathematical and physical facts of life. You need to take a course in introductory probability theory and learn what the effect of the multiplication rule is on joint random adaptive mutations. It's really not that difficult. Even Taq understands this.
Kleinman:
Biologists don't understand how descent with modification works.
AZPaul3:
Of course that makes you a martyr and a hero. The know-nothing world-wide discipline of thousands of biologists are all wrong. Only you are right.

You're an idiot. No one accepts your crap. You are reduced to shouting silently into the void. How many forums have rejected your presence? Include EvC.​

AZPaul3, you can believe that the earth is flat but don't teach that to naive school children as scientific fact. And I'm not the martyr, it's those dying of drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments, a phenomenon caused by descent with modification, a subject that biologists fail to teach properly to naive school children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by AZPaul3, posted 10-22-2022 10:09 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by AZPaul3, posted 10-22-2022 11:48 AM Kleinman has replied

  
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