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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 586 of 2932 (899848)
10-20-2022 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 583 by vimesey
10-20-2022 5:42 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Yes, the value of P ranges from 0 to 1. But the probability of abiogenesis occurring naturally is less than zero ... because producing life from inanimate matter is a not only a scientific impossibility, it is a miracle that only God can perform ... hence its miraculous and scientifically-impossible probability of less than zero.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by vimesey, posted 10-20-2022 5:42 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by vimesey, posted 10-20-2022 8:07 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 10-20-2022 11:58 AM Dredge has not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 587 of 2932 (899849)
10-20-2022 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 586 by Dredge
10-20-2022 7:56 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
And you manage to contradict yourself in 54 words.
I'll leave you be - you've dug your own hole here.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 7:56 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 8:42 AM vimesey has not replied
 Message 589 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 10:29 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 588 of 2932 (899851)
10-20-2022 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 587 by vimesey
10-20-2022 8:07 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:
Yes, the value of P ranges from 0 to 1. But the probability of abiogenesis occurring naturally is less than zero ... because producing life from inanimate matter is a not only a scientific impossibility, it is a miracle that only God can perform ... hence its miraculous and scientifically-impossible probability of less than zero.
vimesey:
And you manage to contradict yourself in 54 words.

I'll leave you be - you've dug your own hole here.

What Dredge is saying is that the creation of life is not a stochastic process.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by vimesey, posted 10-20-2022 8:07 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 11:24 AM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 602 by ringo, posted 10-20-2022 12:04 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 589 of 2932 (899853)
10-20-2022 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 587 by vimesey
10-20-2022 8:07 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
vimesey writes:
you manage to contradict yourself
Well, of course it would seem like a contradiction to an atheist, for an atheist cannot understand the mathematics of God.
in 54 words.
I wouldn't know about that - I can't count that high.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by vimesey, posted 10-20-2022 8:07 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 11:11 AM Dredge has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5948
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 590 of 2932 (899855)
10-20-2022 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 589 by Dredge
10-20-2022 10:29 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Well, of course it would seem like a contradiction to an atheist, for an atheist cannot understand the mathematics of God.
Is that anything like Bistromathics, which is based on the observation that the laws of mathematics break down completely when you're trying to figure out what each person in the group owes at a bistro:
quote:
The Bistromathic Drive is a wonderful new method of crossing vast interstellar distances without all that dangerous mucking about with improbability factors (DWise1: reference to the Infinite Improbability Drive used by the Heart of Gold).
Bistromathics itself is a revolutionary new way of understanding the behavior of numbers. Just as Einstein observed that space was not an absolute but depended on the observer’s movement in space, and that time was not an absolute but depended on the observer’s movement in time, so it is now realized that numbers are not absolute but depend on the observer’s movement in restaurants.
Admit it. You’re not totally surprised, just a little worried.
How It Works
Bistromathics works by exploiting the uncertain nature of three numbers.
The first non-absolute number is the number of people for whom the table is reserved. This will vary during the course of the first three telephone calls to the restaurant and bear no relation to the number of people who actually turn up.
The second non-absolute number is the given time of arrival, which is now known to be one of those most bizarre of mathematical concepts, a recipriversexcluson, a number whose existence can only be defined as being anything other than itself.
The third and most mysterious factor lies in the relationship between the number of items on the check, the cost of each item, the number of people at the table, and what they are each prepared to pay for.
And actually atheists do understand and have figured out the "mathematics of God".
It doesn't add up! Which is one reason why we are atheists.
Nu?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 10:29 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 11:22 AM dwise1 has replied
 Message 594 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 11:37 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 591 of 2932 (899857)
10-20-2022 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by dwise1
10-20-2022 11:11 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
dwise1:
And actually atheists do understand and have figured out the "mathematics of God".

It doesn't add up! Which is one reason why we are atheists.

Nu?
dwise1 will now present his experimental evidence that verifies his mathematical model.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 11:11 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 11:26 AM Kleinman has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5948
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 592 of 2932 (899858)
10-20-2022 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 588 by Kleinman
10-20-2022 8:42 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
What Dredge is saying is that the creation of life is not a stochastic process.
Who cares?
It's like the demonstration chant:
quote:
What do we want? Time travel!
When do we want it? It doesn't matter!
Regardless of how life arose, it did.
And as soon as life did arise, evolution started working (maybe even before then).
Evolution is the end result of life doing what life does. If you have life, then you also have evolution. You cannot separate the two.
And if you were an actual creationist (instead of just a fake one) then you would know that even in the case of life arising through natural physical processes that the Creator had created those very processes, so life arising through natural processes would not in any way contradict the Creator.
But being a clueless fake creationist, that would never have occurred to you.
Creationists trying to deflect and divert the discussion to abiogenesis (an entirely different issue from evolution) is nothing but pure bullshit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 8:42 AM Kleinman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 12:13 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5948
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 593 of 2932 (899859)
10-20-2022 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 591 by Kleinman
10-20-2022 11:22 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
HAA HAA HAA!
You fucking idiotic creationist!
Just because you do not have a math model for evolution doesn't mean that those pointing out that your emperor has no clothes have one themselves.
What a fucking idiot you are!
HAA HAA HAA!
But seriously, we can smell your bullshit from a mile away. And it doesn't even begin to approach the smell of sandalwood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 11:22 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 11:42 AM dwise1 has replied
 Message 604 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 12:18 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 594 of 2932 (899860)
10-20-2022 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by dwise1
10-20-2022 11:11 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
dwise1 writes:
the "mathematics of God" ... It doesn't add up! ... we are atheists.
Thank you for proving my point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 11:11 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 11:52 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 595 of 2932 (899861)
10-20-2022 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 593 by dwise1
10-20-2022 11:26 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
dwise1:
HAA HAA HAA!

You fucking idiotic creationist!

Just because you do not have a math model for evolution doesn't mean that those pointing out that your emperor has no clothes have one themselves.

What a fucking idiot you are!

HAA HAA HAA!

But seriously, we can smell your bullshit from a mile away. And it doesn't even begin to approach the smell of sandalwood.
So much anger and jealousy, you need mercy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 11:26 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 11:50 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5948
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 596 of 2932 (899862)
10-20-2022 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 584 by Kleinman
10-20-2022 7:04 AM


Re: Not Just Math, Kleinman Doesn't Know Anything
Like I pointed out (and you even quoted and yet still don't understand), it don't mean a thing if you ain't got the right math model (doo-wah, doo-wah, doo-wah).
You're nothing but a bullshitting creationist who knows nothing more than your script. Most creationists are completely incapable of functioning outside of their scripts because they don't even begin to understand any part of their scripts. Maybe you are marginally better off than they are.
Part of the problem is that while typical creationist scripts are almost trivially easy to expose as bullshit, IDiot scripts are a tougher nut to crack. Yes, they are still bullshit, but they are a better quality of bullshit (though it still doesn't smell like sandalwood). Mainly they are couched in non-trivial math and mathematical concepts (eg, information theory) that most people are not intimately familiar with, which requires refuters to have training in those esoteric fields in order to expose that bullshit for what it is. As Fred Edwords said nearly half a century ago about creationist nonsense (slightly paraphrased from memory):
quote:
Of course it is nonsense and you can see that it is nonsense. But you can't just say "Why, that's nonsense!" You have to be able to explain why it's nonsense. (implied: which can very rarely be done in the middle of a debate -- also refer to the all-too-common creationist debate tactic, the Gish gallop)
So it's not enough to know your evolution well. You must know your creationism better!

It doesn't matter even a single fetid dingo's kidney, let alone a load of them, how good your math is if your math model is total bollocks. I would be a fool to use my mortgage spreadsheet to figure out my income tax, or to try to solve the Kepler problem with my greenhouse control software, so why do you think that you can do the same thing and get the right results in violation of all the laws of Nature?
Seriously, Littleman, unlike physics (which is rather simple to model) biology is not simple! If it would help, think of "biology" as a euphemism for sex (though judging by your apparent ignorance of sexual reproduction, it seems that your father never had The Talk with you). Biology is complicated and messy. Very messy. And very wet. When my general contractor father first tried to explain a sex bolt to me, I assumed it was called that because it was incomprehensible.
If you use a bogus math model than it doesn't matter a single fetid dingo's kidney how good your math is. Why does that simple truth repeatedly fly over your head? In computer science we have an acronym for that: GIGO -- "garbage in, garbage out" (or in your case, "garbage in, Gospel out" -- also, GIGO played a part in my former rating symbol for Data Systems Technician, DS (not apparent in the graphic, on the rate badge the inbound arrows were filled in and the outbound was empty, so "unprocessed garbage in, processed garbage out").
Half a century ago (c. 1970) I read Jesus Freak proselytizing training materials in which their tactic was to hit their victims with non-trivial questions intended to throw those victims off balance in order to either make them vulnerable to conversion or else to make on-lookers lose confidence in them. It is all dishonest bullshit! For the past few decades of trying to deal with creationists, they just keep using those same old bullshit tactics of the Jesus Freaks half a century ago! (so they/you haven't learned anything at all in the meantime?) Nothing that you have done here has been any different.
Nu? (if you don't know any Yiddish, just refer to your Russian, ну?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 7:04 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5948
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 597 of 2932 (899863)
10-20-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 595 by Kleinman
10-20-2022 11:42 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Wow! You're nothing but a typical willfully stupid creationist!
HAA HAA HAA!
So what are we supposed to think of your willfully stupid religion and god?
You fucking idiot!
HAA HAA HAA!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 11:42 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 598 of 2932 (899864)
10-20-2022 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 580 by Dredge
10-20-2022 12:53 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
The probability of life arising naturally from inanimate matter would be LESS than zero ...
Go ahead and show us your calculations on that.
Dredge writes:
ringo logic: "The probability of me winning the lottery one thousand times in row is not zero ... therefore it could happen."
Correct. Are you that ignorant about probability? Ask Kleinman. I think he's smart enough to tell you the same thing I'm telling you.
Dredge writes:
A statistical impossibility is a probability that is so low as to not be worthy of mentioning.
That depends entirely on the context. If the lottery is drawn once a week, it would take almost twenty years for me to win 1000 times. Certainly possible. But if the lottery was drawn once a year, it would take a thousand years. Not possible (but only because I wouldn't be alive. My numbers could still win).
You don't have any basis for your claim about the probability of abiogenesis. Show us your calculations. What chemicals are you starting with? What end product are you shooting for?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 12:53 AM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5948
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 599 of 2932 (899865)
10-20-2022 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by Dredge
10-20-2022 11:37 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Thank you for proving my point.
What point?
That we can see through the stupidity of your position?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 11:37 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 600 of 2932 (899866)
10-20-2022 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Kleinman
10-20-2022 7:06 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
It's good to see that vimesey has some understanding of probability theory.
Tell your disciple.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 7:06 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
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