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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8533
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 571 of 2932 (899819)
10-19-2022 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Kleinman
10-19-2022 6:10 PM


Re: Not Just Math, Kleinman Doesn't Know Anything
Whatever reason you have for believing in universal common descent, you will have to find another explanation because universal common descent is not true.
We don't believe you. We know better.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Kleinman, posted 10-19-2022 6:10 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4413
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 572 of 2932 (899821)
10-19-2022 6:48 PM


Endogenous Retrovirus Wikipedia Article
I found a lot of information about ERVs in this Wikipedia: Endogenous Retrovirus article.
quote:
Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are endogenous viral elements in the genome that closely resemble and can be derived from retroviruses. They are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates, and they comprise up to 5–8% of the human genome (lower estimates of ~1%)
ERVs are a vertically inherited proviral sequence and a subclass of a type of gene called a transposon, which can normally be packaged and moved within the genome to serve a vital role in gene expression and in regulation ERVs however lack most transposon functions, are typically not infectious and are often defective genomic remnants of the retroviral replication cycle. They are distinguished as germline provirus retroelements due to their integration and reverse-transcription into the nuclear genome of the host cell.
quote:
The replication cycle of a retrovirus entails the insertion ("integration") of a DNA copy of the viral genome into the nuclear genome of the host cell. Most retroviruses infect somatic cells, but occasional infection of germline cells (cells that produce eggs and sperm) can also occur. Rarely, retroviral integration may occur in a germline cell that goes on to develop into a viable organism. This organism will carry the inserted retroviral genome as an integral part of its own genome—an "endogenous" retrovirus (ERV) that may be inherited by its offspring as a novel allele. Many ERVs have persisted in the genome of their hosts for millions of years. However, most of these have acquired inactivating mutations during host DNA replication and are no longer capable of producing the virus. ERVs can also be partially excised from the genome by a process known as recombinational deletion, in which recombination between the identical sequences that flank newly integrated retroviruses results in deletion of the internal, protein-coding regions of the viral genome.
quote:
Human endogenous retroviruses (HERV) comprise a significant part of the human genome, with approximately 98,000 ERV elements and fragments making up 5–8%.According to a study published in 2005, no HERVs capable of replication had been identified; all appeared to be defective, containing major deletions or nonsense mutations (not true for HERV-K). This is because most HERVs are merely traces of original viruses, having first integrated millions of years ago. An analysis of HERV integrations is ongoing as part of the 100,000 Genomes Project.
Human endogenous retroviruses were originally discovered when human genomic libraries were screened under low-stringency conditions using either probes from animal retroviruses or by using oligonucleotides with similarity to virus sequences.
Constructing phylogenies
Because most HERVs have no function, are selectively neutral, and are very abundant in primate genomes, they easily serve as phylogenetic markers for linkage analysis. They can be exploited by comparing the integration site polymorphisms or the evolving, proviral, nucleotide sequences of orthologs. To estimate when integration occurred, researchers used distances from each phylogenetic tree to find the rate of molecular evolution at each particular locus. It is also useful that ERVs are rich in many species genomes (i.e. plants, insects, mollusks, fish, rodents, domestic pets, and livestock) because its application can be used to answer a variety of phylogenetic questions.
Designating the age of provirus and the time points of species separation events
This is accomplished by comparing the different HERV from different evolutionary periods. For example, this study was done for different hominoids, which ranged from humans to apes and to monkeys. This is difficult to do with PERV because of the large diversity present

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by Kleinman, posted 10-19-2022 8:01 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 573 of 2932 (899823)
10-19-2022 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 568 by AZPaul3
10-19-2022 5:48 PM


Re: Not Just Math, Kleinman Doesn't Know Anything
He's a creationist, so what can you expect?
In my four decades of experience, I've learned that almost no creationist ever knows what he is talking about. All they know is what creationists have told them, which they memorize and are able to spout off at the drop of a hat (which is why I never wear a hat -- old Woody Allen joke about an ex-wife: "She'd have sex at the drop of a hat, but the marriage failed because I wouldn't wear a hat"). Basically, they learn scripts of encounters which they play out all the time without ever understanding anything behind the script -- I saw this half a century ago with the proselytizing training materials for the Jesus Freaks and it hasn't changed the least bit since then (which is why I love to go off-script with them).
That is why the worst thing you can do to a creationist is to try to discuss his claims with him (he has no response because he doesn't understand anything about his own claims except that he was taught that just uttering those magic words would cause "evolutionists" to shrivel up before his eyes) but far worse than that would be to ask him, "What are your talking about?" In decades of engaging online with creationists, none have ever even tried to answer that question honestly.
Now, the YECs were easy. Their bogus claims were so transparently bogus that we could refute them immediately and with no effort (just think of candle2 and radiocarbon dating methods). But this new breed is a bit more difficult. The Old School creationists would assume authority far outside their fields of expertise and so made themselves very vulnerable -- of course so many of them had no expertise at all (eg, Kent Hovind), but some did have some expertise somewhere yet always pontificated far outside of it. They were and are so easy to refute.
This new breed is a bit of a tougher nut to crack. They have acquired some degree of expertise, often in a field that most people find to be esoteric, and they try to stay close to that field. While even the most basic knowledge of science allows you to refute a YEC, this new breed requires you to be conversant in information theory and higher math in order to refute them.
IOW, while they are still slinging basically the same old bullshit, their bullshit appears to be of a much finer quality (maybe at the peak of Mount Bandini instead of at its base). In all debates/encounters with creationists, we can immediately see that their claims are nonsense, but it's so much easier to show that a YEC's nonsense is nonsense than to show that for an IDiot's nonsense.
IOW, it's nothing more than they old college maxim (especially for essay exams that you hadn't properly prepared for): "If you can't blind them with your brilliance, then baffle them with your bullshit." Yes, that is directly related to doing a "snow job" (I have been in a North Dakota blizzard; no howling wind but rather a dead silence as tons of snow dropped down upon you).
Like the typical know-nothing creationist who only knows his script, LittleMan (auf deutsch heißt "little", "klein") keeps harping on the very small number of studies in his script, even though their math models of asexual reproduction are far insufficient to apply to sexual reproduction (as has been pointed out to him over and over again for so many times). All he knows is his script, so he is incapable of dealing with anything that goes off-script for him ... such as sexual reproduction.
That is why he cannot deal with Taq nor with anybody else who tries to take him off-script.
 
He keeps bragging about being such a mathematical genius, but if so then why doesn't he realize that mathematics are absolutely worthless unless applied properly.
I am a retired software engineer. In addition, I pursued gaming on the side -- entering into a military career (which I ended up continuing in the reserves) I looked to wargaming as a way to analyze military operations ("Amateurs study battles; professionals study organization and logistics.").
Almost every single program depends on a math model. There's some real-world situation or system that you need to represent and work with, which means that you need to create a math model of the situation or system. What are the input data, how to process them, and how to present the output? One approach I learned was to start with the output, figure out what inputs we needed, then figure out that middle ground of how to process the inputs to generate the outputs.
On an even lower level, the issue of data representation would always come up (it was a much lower-level issue than Wikipedia would have it now). How do you represent all these factors in a computer program?
Whatever else you can say, every single computer program depends on formulating a mathematical model.
In MultiMate/excel I've created spreadsheets for the schedule of mortgage payments (in that example, it wasn't until year 26 of a 30-year mortgage that you've paid off half of the balance -- sickening, isn't that?) and much more recently federal income tax estimates. So Littleman wants to apply the math models for asexual reproduction to models for sexual reproduction. That makes as much sense as applying my mortgage spreadsheet models as being essential to estimating my federal income tax.
Speaking as a retired software engineer with 36 years professional experience, I have that many years plus another 5 years of schooling of experience in that programming practice of modeling the data.
LittleMan's hyper-attention to the mathematics at the expense of the math models they are supposed to support exposes a very serious vulnerability in his creationist bias.
Linguistically, math is a language. Much as algebra is also a language (which serves as a very good teaching tool if applied properly). In English you can say things that are very true and profound, but also things that are very foolish and idiotic. The language is the same while the underlying argument is totally bogus.
Similarly, math is dependent on the underlying math model. In formal logic, a logically valid argument is valid, but it can only lead to true conclusions if all its premises are true. Similarly, mathematics can only lead to true conclusions if the math model itself is true.
So the proof is not so much in the math itself as it is in the math model itself. Set up an utterly false math model and the mathematics based on that model will prove it out conclusively. But base those calculations on a truer math model and you will get very different results.
For example, the probability models that most creationists use for "evolution" are hopelessly hopeless.
Make every change happen all at once out of nowhere. This is known as "single-step selection". The probability of that is astronomically small such that to so produce the alphabet in alphabetical order with a million attempts every second, would require multiple trillions of years to accomplish.
Yet using cumulative selection in each generation in which the closest individual to the goal is selected to generate the next generation of attempts results in a solution in much under a minute of time. Such is the power of evolution (the cumulative selection model was patterned after how life itself and also evolution work).
I have personally seen creationist "evolution models" which were quite literally based on coin tosses: "Evolution requires ten coin tosses to come up heads", "No it doesn't you idiot!"
Until someone comes up with a proper math model for evolution, none of your BS applies, LittleMan.
models
(or

This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2022 5:48 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 7:04 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 574 of 2932 (899824)
10-19-2022 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by Tanypteryx
10-19-2022 6:48 PM


Re: Endogenous Retrovirus Wikipedia Article
Tanypteryx:
I found a lot of information about ERVs in this Wikipedia: Endogenous Retrovirus article.
It's about time. Shouldn't you have done your homework before making claims about endogenous retroviruses? So, Wikipedia answers some of my questions from Message 478
1. What percentage of the human and chimpanzee genome is made up of what you call ERVs?
Humans 5-8%, chimpanzee?
2. How did humans and chimpanzees or your primate progenitor acquire these ERVs?
Infection, either somatic or germline cells. But,
Wikipedia:
Rarely, retroviral integration may occur in a germline cell that goes on to develop into a viable organism. This organism will carry the inserted retroviral genome as an integral part of its own genome—an "endogenous" retrovirus (ERV) that may be inherited by its offspring as a novel allele.
So you have a problem here, how do somatic cell retroviral infections make it into germ cell lines?
3. When did humans and chimpanzees or your primate progenitor acquire these ERVs?
Millions of years
4. How many bases are in a typical retrovirus?
Not given in your reference but in this reference:
Retrovirus - Wikipedia
Wikipedia:
Virions, viruses in the form of independent particles of retroviruses, consist of enveloped particles about 100 nm in diameter. The outer lipid envelope consists of glycoprotein.[9] The virions also contain two identical single-stranded RNA molecules 7–10 kilobases in length.
5. Are ERVs biologically active and perform some type of genetic activity for the cell or are they what biologists like to call "junk" DNA?
Some may be yes, others no.
So, let's start by doing some simple analysis. 5% of the human genome is 150,000,000 bases. And if each retrovirus is about 10,000 bases long, That would mean about 15,000 rare germline infections that don't kill the offspring in the lineage that leads to humans and chimps. But we still don't know the percentage of the chimp genome that is ERVs.
And since we are trying to answer these questions, are these stretches of DNA which are being called ERVs really retroviruses, or are they simply stretches of host DNA that control its own gene transcription? And if these are retroviruses, what happened to the genes from the virus that code for its own proteins such as capsules, binding proteins, and enzymes necessary to replicate itself using the host's microanatomy?
Tany, I think you have a problem with your claim that these ERVs show that humans and chimps descended from a common ancestor. But if you think you can still make your case, I'll listen and consider whether it is consistent with what I've learned about retroviruses in my biochemistry course, pathology course, and other studies. I suspect what was done by the researchers that made this claim is the same problem that is made by the researchers doing inferential phylogenetics, they are not random sampling their data.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-19-2022 6:48 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 575 of 2932 (899825)
10-19-2022 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by Kleinman
10-19-2022 1:19 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Just because you are a nitpicker doesn't make you interesting.
And yet you keep replying.
Kleinman writes:
Tell it to the biologists so that AZPaul3 can have a chance to win his bet with Dredge.
They already know. Where do you think we get our information?
Kleinman writes:
Sixty-four posts filling space...
And you keep replying to them.
Kleinman writes:
Why don't you start a topic on abiogenesis?
I don't think I've ever started a topic. It isn't what I do.
YOU are the one who claims to have the goods on abiogenesis and you claim I know nothing. Put your money where your mouth is.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Kleinman, posted 10-19-2022 1:19 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 576 of 2932 (899826)
10-19-2022 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by Dredge
10-19-2022 1:58 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
The former is impossible...
Do you understand the difference between "improbable" and "impossible"?
Unless the probability is ZERO, it is possible.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Dredge, posted 10-19-2022 1:58 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 12:53 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 577 of 2932 (899827)
10-19-2022 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Dredge
10-19-2022 2:05 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
Action? What action?
I said, "google it."

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Dredge, posted 10-19-2022 2:05 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 578 of 2932 (899828)
10-19-2022 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by Dredge
10-19-2022 2:09 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
While you're at it, give me a kindergarten-level in spelling. "panick"?
One thing at a time. Are you going to take me up on my offer to school you in chemistry or not?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Dredge, posted 10-19-2022 2:09 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 579 of 2932 (899829)
10-19-2022 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by Dredge
10-19-2022 2:33 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
ringo writes:
Abiogenesis is practically inevitable
An atheist fairy tale.
Put up or shut up. Start a topic.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Dredge, posted 10-19-2022 2:33 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 580 of 2932 (899832)
10-20-2022 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by ringo
10-19-2022 9:56 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
ringo writes:
Do you understand the difference between "improbable" and "impossible"?

Unless the probability is ZERO, it is possible.
The probability of life arising naturally from inanimate matter would be LESS than zero ... that's how IMPOSSIBLE it is (cf. the probability that Christ will return is 1 ... ie, a certainty).
ringo logic: "The probability of me winning the lottery one thousand times in row is not zero ... therefore it could happen." LOL!!
"A statistical impossibility is a probability that is so low as to not be worthy of mentioning. Sometimes it is quoted as 10−50 although the cutoff is inherently arbitrary. Although not truly impossible the probability is low enough so as to not bear mention in a rational, reasonable argument."
Forbidden - Stack Exchange.
Leave your embarrassing, anti-science, atheist fairy-tale behind and grow up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by ringo, posted 10-19-2022 9:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by vimesey, posted 10-20-2022 4:03 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 598 by ringo, posted 10-20-2022 11:51 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 608 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 2:02 PM Dredge has replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(4)
Message 581 of 2932 (899834)
10-20-2022 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 580 by Dredge
10-20-2022 12:53 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
The probability of life arising naturally from inanimate matter would be LESS than zero
No probability is less than zero. Study a bit of maths.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 12:53 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 5:08 AM vimesey has replied
 Message 585 by Kleinman, posted 10-20-2022 7:06 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 582 of 2932 (899835)
10-20-2022 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by vimesey
10-20-2022 4:03 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
vimesey writes:
No probability is less than zero. Study a bit of maths.
The value of P can be less than zero ... just as IQ can be less than zero.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by vimesey, posted 10-20-2022 4:03 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by vimesey, posted 10-20-2022 5:42 AM Dredge has replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 583 of 2932 (899836)
10-20-2022 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 582 by Dredge
10-20-2022 5:08 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
You really do know how to put your foot in it, don't you. Try reading this and educate yourself:

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 5:08 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2022 7:56 AM vimesey has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 584 of 2932 (899837)
10-20-2022 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by dwise1
10-19-2022 7:48 PM


Re: Not Just Math, Kleinman Doesn't Know Anything
dwise1:
I have personally seen creationist "evolution models" which were quite literally based on coin tosses: "Evolution requires ten coin tosses to come up heads", "No it doesn't you idiot!"

Until someone comes up with a proper math model for evolution, none of your BS applies, LittleMan.

models
Why does it gall you so much that DNA adaptive evolution is a binomial probability problem? The random trial is a replication and the two possible outcomes are a beneficial mutation occurs or a beneficial mutation does not occur. A perfect example of the simple things confounding dwise1.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by dwise1, posted 10-19-2022 7:48 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2022 11:47 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 585 of 2932 (899839)
10-20-2022 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by vimesey
10-20-2022 4:03 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:
The probability of life arising naturally from inanimate matter would be LESS than zero
vimesey:
No probability is less than zero. Study a bit of maths.

It's good to see that vimesey has some understanding of probability theory. I wonder if vimesey knows how to use the "at least one rule" to compute the probability of at least one adaptive mutation occurring depending on the number of replication trials of a particular variant. It would really help dwise1 in his quest to understand DNA adaptive evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by vimesey, posted 10-20-2022 4:03 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by ringo, posted 10-20-2022 11:53 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
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