|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Really? Biologists understand that it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutational transition? How did biologists figure that out by reading fossil tea leaves? ringo:Biologists have not figured out why biological competition slows descent with modification. That's why there are no papers by biologists that correctly explain the Kishony, Lenski, or Desai experiments. Where's the biologist's mathematical model of random recombination? I have the whole tree, I have all the cherries. Kleinman:You ask them if my math is correct or not. I published the math that explains the Kishony experiment before it was performed and I've explained to Lenski why competition slows adaptation in his experiment. If they won't admit it publicly whether I'm correct or not is not my choice. Kleinman:Oh really? Post a few examples of how that has been done. Kleinman:So you think that drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments are fairytales? Is it the intent of biologists to give sad endings to those stories? It certainly seems so. Kleinman:Why are you ignoring the Desai experiment? Kleinman:There you go! Your idea of science is no math, no physics. The reading of fossil tea-leaves tells it all. Kleinman:He should be if he actually wants to understand how biological evolution works. Here's the first line of the introduction from his paper: Phenotypic and molecular evolution across 10,000 generations in laboratory budding yeast (with asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction) populations quote:Why don't you solve this problem with your fossil tea-leaf reading? Kleinman:Why don't you get off your pins and needles and do it yourself? Kleinman:Just imagine what those two selection pressures would do to the population of biology students. That would be a real sixth extinction.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Abiogenesis and universal common descent, the dumb and dumber of the field of biology. Yeah, I'm quaking in my boots.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
ringo:Don't need to, already proved 1. and 2. false.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
ringo:Once again, I'm impressed with your attention to detail. Now, if you could only apply that attention to the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
Ha ha! Good one! Biology for Space Cadets. Abiogenesis and universal common descent, the dumb and dumber of the field of biology. Abiogenesis: Knowing how stupendously complex any living organism is, how dumb would you have to be to believe that lifeless mud, by a wild stoke of luck, somehow became a living organism? And that very fortunate organism just so happened to be able to reproduce! How lucky was that?! The probability of that happening is to impossibly small that no one with even an ounce of common sense could believe such a profoundly unscientific idea.Embarrassing. Universal Common Descent: How dumb would you have to be to believe that a human and a lettuce evolved from the same organism? Manifest superstition. Embarrassing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:It is sad that the field of biology has become like this. It has become a form of zealotry. I wonder why they think it is so important to believe that humans are related to chimpanzees. I suspect it is because they understand that if they aren't related to chimpanzees that they were created and owe a debt and are accountable to their Creator. Perhaps if they knew that their Creator was abounding in mercy and grace it might make a difference.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
|
Tany thinks that DNA evolution works differently for insects than it does for yeast. I know that the evolutionary process works differently in modern complex sexually reproducing organisms compared to bacteria and viruses and yeast, and so do you.
Do you want to explain to us how a retrovirus in a somatic cell gets into a gamete? By infecting a gamete in the first place Nimrod.
And are you claiming that these retroviruses somehow alter the reproductive fitness of either humans or chimpanzees? Nope, I didn't even imply that.
Do you know that humans and chimpanzees produce identical insulin? Yep, and unlike you I also know why, but so what? What does that have to do with ERVs? I knew you wouldn't be able to explain the pattern of endogenous retroviral insertions in the human and chimp genomes, or in all the other organisms that also have them, for the same reasons that you were unable to explain the nested hierarchy that all complex life fits into when you plot ERVs, or genomes or morphological relationships.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Don't stop there, tell us how DNA evolution is different in "modern", complex, sexually reproducing organisms than bacteria, viruses, and yeast. Kleinman:So these are infectious retroviruses, not endogenous retroviruses. When were these stem cells infected by these retroviruses and do these retroviruses use these stem cells to reproduce themselves? Kleinman:Then why do humans have greater reproductive fitness than chimps? Kleinman:Do you know that humans and chimps don't produce identical preproinsulin? This has to do with a habit of yours of seeing similarities where they don't really exist. Tanypteryx:I thought you said these were infectious retroviruses, not endogenous retroviruses and they infect gametes. And that they appear randomly in the genome. And that humans and chimps have the exact same ERVs. What percent of the human genome is composed of these retroviruses? And what percentage of the chimpanzee genome is composed of retroviruses?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
|
I was starting to think you had left the building as well. Nope, I just had to go on a road trip to Utah. I'm here now, so I can pop in occasionally when I have time. It does seem like continued argument with you is pointless. You are just another creationist abusing science. Your conclusions and knowledge of evolution are flawed and no matter how much insist you are correct you seem to have convinced no one. Your work has been ignored by science. Everyone already knows that multiple therapies or pesticides work better than shingle ones, and why, so stop acting like you invented it.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
|
I thought you said these were infectious retroviruses, not endogenous retroviruses Then you thought wrong. So you still can't explain the pattern as I said.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
|
It does seem like continued argument with you is pointless. Yes. This is why I have stopped responding to his posts.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Abusing science? That's silly. And I know that my work is ignored by most biologists. It doesn't fit their mathematically irrational belief system. And I don't claim to have invented combination therapies. Edward Tatum in his 1958 Nobel Laureate Lecture explained it and it is due to the multiplication rule of probabilities. Biologists also ignore Edward Tatum's work which explains why biologists still can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. You should learn about that mathematical rule and its effect on descent with modification.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Tany, it's not up to me to explain this pattern that you are seeing. It is for you to give an explanation. And I have a few questions about your claim. I hope you don't think I'm abusing you with these questions. 1. What percentage of the human and chimpanzee genome is made up of what you call ERVs?2. How did humans and chimpanzees or your primate progenitor acquire these ERVs? 3. When did humans and chimpanzees or your primate progenitor acquire these ERVs? 4. How many bases are in a typical retrovirus? 5. Are ERVs biologically active and perform some type of genetic activity for the cell or are they what biologists like to call "junk" DNA? Answer those questions and that will give us a good start in analyzing your claim. This is going to be fun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Tanypteryx:Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that the mathematician with a little knowledge of physics doesn't do the mathematics of biological evolution.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
AZPaul3 writes:
I need to re-word that part. What I meant to say is that my bad reaction to the Covid vacc can attributed to my weird health. Since the covid vax is all of 3 years old you might want to look to some other cause of your decades long health problems. Thank you for being my friend.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024