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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 466 of 2926 (899631)
10-16-2022 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by ringo
10-16-2022 4:03 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
ringo, we are in the era of DNA identification.
ringo:
But universal common descent was well understood since long before we knoew anything about DNA. And DNA has only confirmed universal common descent.

Really? Biologists understand that it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutational transition? How did biologists figure that out by reading fossil tea leaves?
ringo:
Tell it to a biologist. They were doing it long before they know much about DNA.
Kleinman:
That's like using phrenology to determine mental traits.
ringo:
Not at all. Phrenology has been discredited scientifically; universal common descent has not. (You can't cherry-pick one scientific conclusion to deny another.)


Biologists have not figured out why biological competition slows descent with modification. That's why there are no papers by biologists that correctly explain the Kishony, Lenski, or Desai experiments. Where's the biologist's mathematical model of random recombination? I have the whole tree, I have all the cherries.
Kleinman:
But if you think you can explain the Kishony, Lenski, or Desai experiments using gross anatomy, amuse yourself.
ringo:
If Kishony, Lenski or Desai agree with your conclusions, go ahead and show us.

You ask them if my math is correct or not. I published the math that explains the Kishony experiment before it was performed and I've explained to Lenski why competition slows adaptation in his experiment. If they won't admit it publicly whether I'm correct or not is not my choice.
Kleinman:
So explain to us DNA evolution using gross anatomy.
ringo:
No need. DNA has confirmed the nested hierarchy that was initially determined using gross anatomy.

Oh really? Post a few examples of how that has been done.
Kleinman:
I like hearing a good fairytale.
ringo:
Then you should stick to listening and not try to tell your own.

So you think that drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments are fairytales? Is it the intent of biologists to give sad endings to those stories? It certainly seems so.
Kleinman:
You asked for a biological evolutionary experiment with sexual replicators...
ringo:
No I didn't. I asked for the second-and-third-best experimental examples that confirm your conclusion.

Why are you ignoring the Desai experiment?
Kleinman:
If the math doesn't make sense to you, I'll make it simple enought for a layman or biologist to understand.
ringo:
I've told you repeatedly that your math is irrelevant.

I know you're trying to steer the discussion back toward your math but we're past that now. You might think you've invented the best mousetrap ever but nobody is buying it, so we're not interested in discussing your design.

There you go! Your idea of science is no math, no physics. The reading of fossil tea-leaves tells it all.
Kleinman:
It's Kishony, Lenski, and Desai now.
ringo:
I'm sure Desai is tickled pink to be included.

He should be if he actually wants to understand how biological evolution works. Here's the first line of the introduction from his paper:
Phenotypic and molecular evolution across 10,000 generations in laboratory budding yeast (with asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction) populations
quote:
As human health is increasingly threatened by emerging pathogens, multidrug-resistant infections, and therapy-evading cancer cells, our understanding of the dynamics and predictability of evolution is of growing importance. Yet predicting the course of evolution is difficult, since it is driven by a complex combination of deterministic and stochastic forces.
Why don't you solve this problem with your fossil tea-leaf reading?
Kleinman:
When are biologists going to post their mathematical explanation of these experiments?
ringo:
I'm on pins and needles waiting for biologists to confirm your conclusions. When thet do, I'll take you seriously.

Why don't you get off your pins and needles and do it yourself?
Kleinman:
Just change the curriculum for biologists ...
ringo:
Yeah, I'll get right on that.

Just imagine what those two selection pressures would do to the population of biology students. That would be a real sixth extinction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 4:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by ringo, posted 10-17-2022 12:20 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 487 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 12:39 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 467 of 2926 (899632)
10-16-2022 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by ringo
10-16-2022 4:16 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Tell us how life started in the primordial soup.
ringo:
That's a different topic. Are you starting to run scared?

Abiogenesis and universal common descent, the dumb and dumber of the field of biology. Yeah, I'm quaking in my boots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 4:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 7:55 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 484 by ringo, posted 10-17-2022 12:22 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 468 of 2926 (899633)
10-16-2022 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by ringo
10-16-2022 4:22 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
ringo:
So let's see you use mathematics and physics to confirm the Bible story.
Kleinman:
That's an easy one. You have three possibilities, 1. panspermia, 2. abiogenesis then descent with modification, and 3. We were created.
1. panspermia-still have a problem with how life arose on the planet Krypton and how did that life get to earth.
2. abiogenesis then descent with modification-chemistry, physics, and math doesn't work
3. we were created-only possibility remaining and can't be disproved.
ringo:
I don't see where you mentioned the Bible at all. Readong comprehension eludes you again.


Don't need to, already proved 1. and 2. false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 4:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by ringo, posted 10-17-2022 12:26 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 469 of 2926 (899634)
10-16-2022 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by ringo
10-16-2022 4:30 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
ringo:
Once again, you misunderstood the assignment. I wanted you to show how Dredge could have decades of symptoms in 3 years.
Once again, I'm impressed with your attention to detail. Now, if you could only apply that attention to the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 4:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by ringo, posted 10-17-2022 1:06 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 470 of 2926 (899639)
10-16-2022 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 4:55 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Abiogenesis and universal common descent, the dumb and dumber of the field of biology. 
Ha ha! Good one! Biology for Space Cadets.
Abiogenesis: Knowing how stupendously complex any living organism is, how dumb would you have to be to believe that lifeless mud, by a wild stoke of luck, somehow became a living organism? And that very fortunate organism just so happened to be able to reproduce! How lucky was that?!
The probability of that happening is to impossibly small that no one with even an ounce of common sense could believe such a profoundly unscientific idea.
Embarrassing.
Universal Common Descent: How dumb would you have to be to believe that a human and a lettuce evolved from the same organism? Manifest superstition. Embarrassing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 4:55 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 9:01 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 488 by ringo, posted 10-17-2022 12:44 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 471 of 2926 (899640)
10-16-2022 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Dredge
10-16-2022 7:55 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Abiogenesis and universal common descent, the dumb and dumber of the field of biology.
Dredge:
Ha ha! Good one! Biology for Space Cadets.

Abiogenesis: Knowing how stupendously complex any living organism is, how dumb would you have to be to believe that lifeless mud, by a wild stoke of luck, somehow became a living organism? And that very fortunate organism just so happened to be able to reproduce! How lucky was that?!

The probability of that happening is to impossibly small that no one with even an ounce of common sense could believe such a profoundly unscientific idea.
Embarrassing.
Universal Common Descent: How dumb would you have to be to believe that a human and a lettuce evolved from the same organism? Manifest superstition. Embarrassing

It is sad that the field of biology has become like this. It has become a form of zealotry. I wonder why they think it is so important to believe that humans are related to chimpanzees. I suspect it is because they understand that if they aren't related to chimpanzees that they were created and owe a debt and are accountable to their Creator. Perhaps if they knew that their Creator was abounding in mercy and grace it might make a difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 7:55 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 9:29 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 472 of 2926 (899641)
10-16-2022 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 2:47 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tany thinks that DNA evolution works differently for insects than it does for yeast.
I know that the evolutionary process works differently in modern complex sexually reproducing organisms compared to bacteria and viruses and yeast, and so do you.
Do you want to explain to us how a retrovirus in a somatic cell gets into a gamete?
By infecting a gamete in the first place Nimrod.
And are you claiming that these retroviruses somehow alter the reproductive fitness of either humans or chimpanzees?
Nope, I didn't even imply that.
Do you know that humans and chimpanzees produce identical insulin?
Yep, and unlike you I also know why, but so what? What does that have to do with ERVs?
I knew you wouldn't be able to explain the pattern of endogenous retroviral insertions in the human and chimp genomes, or in all the other organisms that also have them, for the same reasons that you were unable to explain the nested hierarchy that all complex life fits into when you plot ERVs, or genomes or morphological relationships.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 2:47 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 11:44 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 473 of 2926 (899645)
10-16-2022 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 10:07 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Tany thinks that DNA evolution works differently for insects than it does for yeast.
Tanypteryx:
I know that the evolutionary process works differently in modern complex sexually reproducing organisms compared to bacteria and viruses and yeast, and so do you.

Don't stop there, tell us how DNA evolution is different in "modern", complex, sexually reproducing organisms than bacteria, viruses, and yeast.
Kleinman:
Do you want to explain to us how a retrovirus in a somatic cell gets into a gamete?
Tanypteryx:
By infecting a gamete in the first place Nimrod.

So these are infectious retroviruses, not endogenous retroviruses. When were these stem cells infected by these retroviruses and do these retroviruses use these stem cells to reproduce themselves?
Kleinman:
And are you claiming that these retroviruses somehow alter the reproductive fitness of either humans or chimpanzees?
Tanypteryx:
Nope, I didn't even imply that.

Then why do humans have greater reproductive fitness than chimps?
Kleinman:
Do you know that humans and chimpanzees produce identical insulin?
Tanypteryx:
Yep, and unlike you I also know why, but so what? What does that have to do with ERVs?

Do you know that humans and chimps don't produce identical preproinsulin? This has to do with a habit of yours of seeing similarities where they don't really exist.
Tanypteryx:
I knew you wouldn't be able to explain the pattern of endogenous retroviral insertions in the human and chimp genomes, or in all the other organisms that also have them, for the same reasons that you were unable to explain the nested hierarchy that all complex life fits into when you plot ERVs, or genomes or morphological relationships.
I thought you said these were infectious retroviruses, not endogenous retroviruses and they infect gametes. And that they appear randomly in the genome. And that humans and chimps have the exact same ERVs. What percent of the human genome is composed of these retroviruses? And what percentage of the chimpanzee genome is composed of retroviruses?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 10:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 11:59 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 474 of 2926 (899646)
10-16-2022 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 12:09 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
I was starting to think you had left the building as well.
Nope, I just had to go on a road trip to Utah. I'm here now, so I can pop in occasionally when I have time.
It does seem like continued argument with you is pointless. You are just another creationist abusing science. Your conclusions and knowledge of evolution are flawed and no matter how much insist you are correct you seem to have convinced no one. Your work has been ignored by science. Everyone already knows that multiple therapies or pesticides work better than shingle ones, and why, so stop acting like you invented it.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:09 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by nwr, posted 10-17-2022 12:15 AM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 477 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 8:21 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 475 of 2926 (899647)
10-16-2022 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 11:44 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
I thought you said these were infectious retroviruses, not endogenous retroviruses
Then you thought wrong.
So you still can't explain the pattern as I said.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 11:44 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 8:23 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 476 of 2926 (899648)
10-17-2022 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 11:54 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
It does seem like continued argument with you is pointless.
Yes. This is why I have stopped responding to his posts.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 11:54 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 8:25 AM nwr has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 477 of 2926 (899650)
10-17-2022 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 11:54 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
I was starting to think you had left the building as well.
Tanypteryx:
Nope, I just had to go on a road trip to Utah. I'm here now, so I can pop in occasionally when I have time.

It does seem like continued argument with you is pointless. You are just another creationist abusing science. Your conclusions and knowledge of evolution are flawed and no matter how much insist you are correct you seem to have convinced no one. Your work has been ignored by science. Everyone already knows that multiple therapies or pesticides work better than shingle ones, and why, so stop acting like you invented it.

Abusing science? That's silly. And I know that my work is ignored by most biologists. It doesn't fit their mathematically irrational belief system. And I don't claim to have invented combination therapies. Edward Tatum in his 1958 Nobel Laureate Lecture explained it and it is due to the multiplication rule of probabilities. Biologists also ignore Edward Tatum's work which explains why biologists still can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. You should learn about that mathematical rule and its effect on descent with modification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 11:54 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by ringo, posted 10-17-2022 12:49 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 478 of 2926 (899651)
10-17-2022 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 11:59 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
I thought you said these were infectious retroviruses, not endogenous retroviruses
Tanypteryx:
Then you thought wrong.

So you still can't explain the pattern as I said.

Tany, it's not up to me to explain this pattern that you are seeing. It is for you to give an explanation. And I have a few questions about your claim. I hope you don't think I'm abusing you with these questions.
1. What percentage of the human and chimpanzee genome is made up of what you call ERVs?
2. How did humans and chimpanzees or your primate progenitor acquire these ERVs?
3. When did humans and chimpanzees or your primate progenitor acquire these ERVs?
4. How many bases are in a typical retrovirus?
5. Are ERVs biologically active and perform some type of genetic activity for the cell or are they what biologists like to call "junk" DNA?
Answer those questions and that will give us a good start in analyzing your claim. This is going to be fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 11:59 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 479 of 2926 (899652)
10-17-2022 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by nwr
10-17-2022 12:15 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tanypteryx:
It does seem like continued argument with you is pointless.
nwr:
Yes. This is why I have stopped responding to his posts.

Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that the mathematician with a little knowledge of physics doesn't do the mathematics of biological evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by nwr, posted 10-17-2022 12:15 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by nwr, posted 10-17-2022 9:19 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 480 of 2926 (899664)
10-17-2022 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by AZPaul3
10-16-2022 12:58 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
AZPaul3 writes:
Since the covid vax is all of 3 years old you might want to look to some other cause of your decades long health problems.
I need to re-word that part. What I meant to say is that my bad reaction to the Covid vacc can attributed to my weird health.
Thank you for being my friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by AZPaul3, posted 10-16-2022 12:58 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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