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Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Kleinman writes:
Fossils don't demonstrate mutations. They demonstrate physical changes that may have been caused by a long chain of mutations.
Where are all the fossils that demonstrate the next transitional mutation? Kleinman writes:
Read. We're talking about EXPERIMENTS here. Give us examples of EXPERIMENTS, besides Kishony and Lenski, that confirm your claims.
I've already mentioned many examples how the multiplication rule affects descent with modification (adaptation). Kleinman writes:
Read. I asked you for an alternative explanation. Are you saying that evolution only happens within "kinds"?
Descent with modification occurs, biological competition occurs, recombination occurs, selection pressures exist, and universal common descent is mathematically irrational and should not be taught as scientific fact to naive school children. Kleinman writes:
There you go again, claiming that you know better than every biologist. And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously. ... biologists have failed to give a correct explanation of the Kishony and Lenski experiments."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
ringo writes:
... a vain attempt to dodge the question.
Fossils don't demonstrate mutations. They demonstrate physical changes that may have been caused by a long chain of mutations.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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... a vain attempt to dodge the question. No. A direct hit. Out of the park. But you're too stupid to understand why. You still think fossils are just old stones and DNA is a stain on your sheets. Edited by AZPaul3, . Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
[QUOTE=top,Kleinman]Where are all the fossils that demonstrate the next transitional mutation?
Dredge:If only these Darwinists could figure out the physics and mathematics of Darwinian evolution. Instead they do this:
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
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Kleinman's equal.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:How do you know that the differences in phenotype you are seeing are due to recombination rather than DNA evolution? Great Danes and Chihuahuas are both canines but their phenotypic difference are due to selective recombination. The point is that you can't use gross anatomy to explain descent with modification. That process has to be measured at the molecular level by DNA sequencing. That's why you shouldn't ignore experiments such as the Kishony and Lenski experiments. Kleinman:Sadly, those examples are the results of real-world experiments. Single selection pressures (antiviral agents, herbicides, pesticides, rodenticides, cancer treatment agents) are tried and they fail due to the emergence of resistant variants. Combination selection pressures are used and they suppress the emergence of resistant variants. But if you want an experiment, try the Desai Lab experiments with yeast. Phenotypic and molecular evolution across 10,000 generations in laboratory budding yeast (with asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction) populations quote:Figure B gives the number of fixations in the different populations: Kleinman:I'm saying that descent with modification (DNA evolutionary adaptation) requires huge populations to operate even when considering a single selection pressure environment. DNA evolutionary adaptation to multiple simultaneous selection pressures takes orders of magnitude larger populations to operate due to multiple instances of the multiplication rule acting simultaneously. Whether you want to use the word "species" or "kind", you have a mathematical and empirical problem with your idea of universal common descent. Kleinman:At least I understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution, why biological competition slows descent with modification and can give the correct mathematical explanation for the Kishony, Lenski, and Desai experiments. Perhaps in a couple more generations biologists will figure this out, perhaps sooner if they take physics and mathematics for science majors, not their survey of physics and survey of math courses.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Dredge:AZPaul3 will now use his fossil tea-leaf reading skills to explain DNA evolutionary adaptation for the Kishony and Lenski experiments. AZPaul3 wants to be captain of the C- team.AZPaul3:
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Tanypteryx:I was starting to think you had left the building as well. Have you figured out how to include the mathematics for mutations other than base substitutions? Do you want me to show you how to do this with a Markov process as well? It's easy peasy! I wouldn't put too much hope in that saving your universal common descent notion.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
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If only these Darwinists could figure out the physics and mathematics of Darwinian evolution. And neither have you. Darwinian evolution is Natural Selection period. No mutations, no genetics. Trying to pass off your calculations from 2 simple bacterial experiments, that were conducted by researchers other than you, as the model for how modern life evolved is really bad science. Too bad evolution is too confusing for you.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
AZPaul3 wants to be captain of the C- team. Just can't help but lie, can you. No wonder your peers rejected your work. You're an idiot.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
I'm saying that descent with modification (DNA evolutionary adaptation) requires huge populations to operate even when considering a single selection pressure environment. So according to your mathematical model, how many generations would it take for a population of, say, 100,000 leopards to change from having spots to no spots ?Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
A gross insult to Kleinman.
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Porkncheese Member (Idle past 268 days) Posts: 198 From: Australia Joined: |
I went to university. I studied engineering. I know exactly what science is and what pseudoscience is.
Very few people do cos very few people did a degree in practical science These are the main pseudoscience fields we see today - Theory of evolution (debunked countless times from many angles)- Big bang theory (recently debunked again, this time by the new JW telescope) - Climate change theory (debunked by their own false predictions of sea level rising) - Covid vaccine theory (debunked by data and now Pfizer themselves) - Transgender theory (debunked as a mental illness and by biology that says there are only 2 genders) A disgrace to modern science
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Of course, Darwin had no idea of DNA, but what do you think Darwin was talking about when he used the term "modified offspring"? And you are right, the Kishony and Lenski experiments are simple when it comes to demonstrating the concepts of Darwinian evolution and evolutionary biology. But these same principles apply to natural selection when describing the effect of herbicides on weeds, insecticides on insects, rodenticides on rodents, and anti-cancer treatments on cancers. Too bad they didn't teach you these mathematical facts of life in your survey of math courses. Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment: Phenotypic and molecular evolution across 10,000 generations in laboratory budding yeast (with asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction) populationsquote:
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Everybody knows that AZPaul3 has no idea how to do the mathematics of biological evolution.
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