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Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:OK. Now explain to us how that changes the mathematics of DNA evolution. Please be specific because haploid clonal replicators carry many mutations from their ancestors as well. How does a lineage of these replicators accumulate a set of adaptive mutations? Kleinman:That includes the possibility that an adaptive allele might not be transferred to the offspring. Kleinman:You have to understand that DNA evolution is a Markov random walk process. This is the mechanism of genetic divergence in a population and the rate of divergence depends on the mutation rate and the number of replications in that population. I showed how to derive the Markov model for the Kishony experiment a while back at Percy's request. I don't recall the message number but it shouldn't be hard to find. Markov processes are entropy processes. These processes determine the rate at which adaptive mutations can accumulate in a lineage. This model very accurately fits both the Kishony and Lenski experiments. Your misinterpretation of the fossil record imagines that this descent with modification (adaptation) can occur with small, even miniscule populations. That's not how DNA evolution works in reality. Tanypteryx:Fossil - Wikipedia quote:Fossils are snapshots of the dead creature at the moment of death. The "fossil record" is an attempt to categorize an evolutionary relationship between these different snapshots based on a lack of understanding of the physics and mathematics of biological evolution, in particular DNA evolution. Kleinman:It appears you didn't follow my discussion with Taq very closely. That billion replications is based on the following: How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth? There have been about 100 billion people that have ever lived, 99% have lived in the last 10,000 years. That leaves about a billion humans who have lived from our first appearance until the last 10,000 years. Choose a mutation rate and do the math. Today there are over 7 billion people on earth and only 300,000 chimps. Kleinman:Lenski demonstrated that only a single mutation fixes at a time in his experiment. And Haldane and Kimura don't make such a ridiculous claim for their models of fixation. Kleinman:Toxins aren't normal selection pressures? The mathematics works the same way for Kishony's antibiotic selection pressure as Lenski's starvation selection pressure. Selection pressures don't change the mathematics of genetic divergence. They only change the genetic target. Kleinman:Sure, and it takes about 1/(mutation rate) replications for each of the adaptive mutations to any one of these selection pressures. DNA evolution obeys specific accounting rules. You should learn them. Tanypteryx:My mistake, I thought you were claiming you had some transitional fossils. It's good to know that you finally have learned that you don't have any. Kleinman:I know, it's hard to teach someone the physics and mathematics of biological evolution when they haven't been trained in either subject. At least you have finally figured out that you don't have any transitional fossils. Kleinman:Lots of biologists have attempted to explain biological evolution, even Lenski. Lenski and his team couldn't figure out why biological evolutionary competition slows biological evolutionary adaptation. That's why he couldn't get his model of his experiment right. Lenski knows now, a Creationist explained it to him. Kleinman:At least my model correctly explains the Kishony and Lenski experiments and why combination therapy works for the treatment of HIV.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Tangle:The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance Random recombination and evolution of drug resistance Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment Drug Resistance, An Enemy of Targeted Cancer Therapies Of course, what Tangle means when he says "a real journal" is one that publishes reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals journal but can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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At least my model correctly explains the Kishony and Lenski experiments and why combination therapy works for the treatment of HIV. No, that's at most. OK, I'm finished. You error has been pointed out multiple times now, but you continue to repeat it. In the end though your argument boils down to, "reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals." Biological science will continue to discover how life works but I don't expect that I will read about you revolutionizing our understanding of the process of biological evolution. It's too bad that you will not be able to help solve the crisis of the Sixth Extinction that threatens all life on our planet.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:See nwr, Tanypteryx now agrees with Taq that my model is correct for asexual replicators. Taq knows that the model also works for asexual replicators, Tanypteryx is slow at learning this mathematical fact of life. Tanypteryx:I missed where you started. And I don't believe that silly notion that "reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals." That's a claim made by biologists that don't understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. Tanypteryx:I'll let you worry about the Sixth Extinction, my job is to deal with antimicrobial-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. Too bad that biologists don't help to solve that problem. And don't blame me for your Sixth Extinction, I live off-grid, do you? Do any other members of the C- team want to debate the physics and mathematics of biological evolution? Or is this forum going the way of the Sixth Extinction?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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You sure are an expert at twisting other people's words and your desperation for approval from the "C team" says a lot.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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See nwr, Tanypteryx now agrees with Taq that my model is correct for asexual replicators. Neither Taq nor Tanypteryx agrees with you about that.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Tanypteryx:Oh boy! Tanypteryx is going to give his physical and mathematical explanation of why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments. And it's not the "C Team" it is the "C- Team" because that's the grade that biologists get when they barely pass their survey of physics and survey of mathematics courses and give a big sigh of relief and say, "thank god for social promotion and I'm glad I'll never have to see this stuff again!".
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Says the mathematician that doesn't do the mathematics of biological evolution. Are you ready to give the correct physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments? So far, Tanypteryx and Taq have failed. Or is your math degree in "Survey of Mathematics"? Tell us nwr, why do you want to believe that you are related to chimpanzees? It can't be because you understand the physics and mathematics of evolution.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Naw, that's "thank god I'm an atheist!"
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Tanypteryx:So, why are you so worried about some "Sixth Extinction" (sounds like societies' latest anxiety disorder to me, Chicken Little)? Won't random mutation and natural selection work things out?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Won't random mutation and natural selection work things out? Yes, of course. But not to humanities benefit. Our species cannot adapt faster than we are trashing our crib. But, you being a religionist with your bag of dysfunctional math books can't comprehend that anymore than you could basic genetics.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:AZPaul3, our all-knowing and wise savior. Perhaps you will come down off your throne and explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Perhaps you will come down off your throne and explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments? You seem desperate for the answer. You should be able to figure it out, it's only freshman level math.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:It's high school-level math and physics, dear Tany. Well, perhaps not at your high school. I think that the Sixth Extinction is hitting the EvC forum and it is caused by the global fuming of atheists. The combination selection pressures of math and physics, nothing can survive that kind of stringent selection.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
What does "Department of Medicine, USA" mean?
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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