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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 232 of 2926 (898516)
09-25-2022 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Kleinman
09-23-2022 4:58 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
Kleinman writes:
Mathematically, microevolutionary events don't add up. They are random events so the joint probability of microevolutionary events occurring is computed using the multiplication rule.
Raindrops are random micro-water. They can't add up to macro-water (rivers, lakes, oceans)?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Kleinman, posted 09-23-2022 4:58 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Kleinman, posted 09-25-2022 4:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 238 of 2926 (898557)
09-26-2022 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Kleinman
09-25-2022 4:37 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
Kleinman writes:
ringo, you are making the same logical inconsistency that Taq makes....
Good. Then I'm likely to be right.
=Kleinman writes:
The correct analogy for your raindrop concept would be, what is the probability of two particular raindrops ending up in the same body of water?
It doesn't matter which raindrops you add. The sum is the same.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Kleinman, posted 09-25-2022 4:37 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 350 of 2926 (899277)
10-11-2022 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Kleinman
10-11-2022 12:11 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
my employer in the aerospace industry that paid me a lot of money for that skill.
When somebody pays you for your biological skills, let us know.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 12:11 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 12:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 354 of 2926 (899282)
10-11-2022 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Kleinman
10-11-2022 12:46 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
You see ringo, I'm licensed in both engineering and medicine.
Good for you. I have the Loch Ness Monster in my bathtub.
Kleinman writes:
And biologists suck at explaining the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail.
It's true that scientists are often not good explainers. That's why I sometimes stick my oar in to explain my kindergarten-level take on science. Maybe once in a while I help somebody up to a kindergarten-level understanding.
Kleinman writes:
Biologists just don't understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.
Aren't you the guy that was talking about tea-leaf reading? Message 147, Message 158, Message 160
That suggests to me that you don't accept evolution. And that suggests to me that you're a lying, science-denying creationist bastard.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 12:46 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 356 of 2926 (899286)
10-11-2022 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Tangle
10-11-2022 1:07 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tangle writes:
why aren't you the new Darwin?
Then we can be the first Kleinmanists.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2022 1:07 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 375 of 2926 (899360)
10-12-2022 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 10:12 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
What does "Department of Medicine, USA" mean?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 10:12 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 4:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 377 of 2926 (899362)
10-12-2022 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 4:27 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Let's see if you can do that as well on the math.
Your math has been done to death. I'm more interested in your disdain for science and your unwillingness to discuss it.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 4:27 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 4:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 383 of 2926 (899379)
10-12-2022 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 4:55 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
What science could ringo want to talk about, fossil tea-leaf reading?
Yes. You've mentioned it several times in a perjorative sense but you seem to be afraid to discuss it.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 4:55 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 10:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 388 of 2926 (899390)
10-12-2022 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 10:27 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
You should be drowning in transitional fossils.
You have neglected to consider the rate of fossilization. I mentioned that a long time ago. Compared to the vast number of organisms that have lived, the number that have been preserved is vanishingly small.
I also mentioned that, strictly speaking, ALL fossils are transitional, not just the obvious ones like archaeopteryx.
And I also mentioned that even ONE transitional fossil would be sufficient to demonstrate that there was a transition.
So your calculations about mutation rates are not really relevant to the supposed scarcity of fossils. Even IF your calculations are correct, you still lose.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 10:27 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2022 8:56 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 391 of 2926 (899416)
10-13-2022 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by Kleinman
10-13-2022 8:56 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
How many T Rex has ever lived and how many fossil specimens exist of T Rex?
Quite a few and not very many.
Kleinman writes:
Then consider that each adaptive step (mutation) in a lineage requires 1/(mutation rate) replication, for a mutation rate of 1e-9, that's a billion replications.
The number of adaptive steps is irrelevant. Do you think every T. Rex fossil ever found is at the same stage of adaptation?
Kleinman writes:
a bird specie
"Species" is already singular. Removing the "s" doesn't make it more singular.
Kleinman writes:
ringo writes:
I also mentioned that, strictly speaking, ALL fossils are transitional, not just the obvious ones like archaeopteryx.
You are confusing the concept of diversity with a transition.
Not at all. The mutations in the individuals produce diversity among their offspring but we're looking at many, many generations here. Every diverse form may be a transitional on the way to a new species.
Kleinman writes:
And fossils are a snapshot of the dead, you don't know whether they had offspring or not.
If no archaeopteryx ever had offspring, it is still a transition between dinosaurs and birds. Even if that particular line died out, there could be other transitions that didn't fossilize. In other words, we KNOW that species transition into other species, even if we don't have fossils for every transition.
Kleinman writes:
... one fossil of some strange extinct life form out of the multiple billions of replications for adaptive evolution to operate is enough to convince you that a reptile lineage can evolve into birds?
Of course. How many pigs do you need to convince you that pigs exist?
Kleinman writes:
Save that argument for naive schoolchildren and biologists that haven't studied introductory probability theory.
I will gladly agree with the biologists on that one. (Did you really think that denigrating biologists would help your argument?)
Kleinman writes:
ringo, you still aren't getting the significance of these calculations and the results of the Kishony and Lenski experiments that substantiate these calculations.
If Kishony and Lenski replicate their experiments with archaeopteryx and T. Rex, the significance of your calculations will be demonstrated.
Kleinman writes:
You must interpret the fossil record in the context of these mathematical facts....
You have it backwards. You calculate the number of transitionals that there "should" be and try to warp reality to fit your idea. Science looks at reality and adjusts the theory to fit the facts.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2022 8:56 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2022 1:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 397 of 2926 (899453)
10-13-2022 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Kleinman
10-13-2022 1:42 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
You can't even explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments correctly. Yet you know that species transition into other species based on a single fossil of an extinct creature.
Again, how many pigs do you need to convince you the pigs exist? Answer the question.
Kleinman writes:
You believe this because you want to believe this.
Wrong. I couldn't care less which answer is true. All I care about is where the evidence leads.
FYI, I have considered switching sides - i.e. trying to argue the creationist side. I'd get a lot more action.
But the crestionist positions, including yours, are so god-dammed stupid that I couldn't think of a single positive thing to say about them.
Kleinman writes:
I'm not denying that you don't have a fossil of a strange extinct creature. It's your claim that the creature is a transition step between a reptile and a bird. You might as well say that pigs are transitioning into birds.
No, I'm saying that if I see a pig I know that pigs exist - and if I see a transitional fossil I know that transitional fossils exist. I don't need to see x number of transitional fossils that you claim "should" exist. I don't need to see x number of pigs. One is enough to demonstrate that it exists.
Kleinman writes:
Stop whining and learn introductory probability theory.
YOU stop whining and learn introductory evolutionary theory. And learn that you can't calculate reality away. Mathematics describes reality; it doesn't define reality.
Kleinman writes:
Why is it so important to you to think that you are related to chimpanzees?
Chimpanzees aren't the worst relatives I have. I don't brag about being related to you.
Kleinman writes:
I don't have to warp the numbers that Kishony and Lenski report.
I didn't say you were. (I guess reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit in college either.)
I said that your whole discussion of the Kishony and Lenski experiments is irrelevant to the number of transitional fossils.
Kleinman writes:
Why is universal common descent so important to you?
Why is gravity so important?
*shrug*
It's a fact. We might as well get used to it.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2022 1:42 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2022 8:43 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 399 of 2926 (899464)
10-14-2022 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by Kleinman
10-14-2022 8:43 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
ringo thinks this is a pig
No. I think it exists. Don't you?
How many transitionals have to exist to convince you that transitionals exist?
Kleinman writes:
Opinions aren't evidence.
Go ahead and point out any opinions that I have expressed that aren't confirmed by evidence.
Kleinman writes:
How long do we have to wait for your physical and mathematical explanation of descent with modification for the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
"We" aren't waiting. Only YOU are waiting. WE are way past your miscalculations.
It took a while to pry you away from your fixation on Kishony and Lenski (are you physically capable of writing a sentence without the words "Kishony and Lenski"?) - but we're talking about transitional fossils now. Try to keep up.
Kleinman writes:
You can have whatever opinion you want....
Go ahead and point out any opinions that I have expressed that aren't confirmed by evidence.
Kleinman writes:
OK ringo, here's your big chance to teach introductory evolutionary theory. Teach us the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments.
Your first lesson is: The Kishony and Lenski experiments are irrelevant to the point you're trying to make.
Kleinman writes:
These are two very simple experimental examples of evolutionary theory.
Maybe they are but they have nothing to do with the point you're trying to make.
Kleinman writes:
At least I don't do this to you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYgsBHbW3Og&ab_channel=Da...
That's pretty much exactly what you're doing.
Kleinman writes:
Are you now claiming that descent with modification works differently for reptiles or humans and chimps than demonstrated in the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
Not at all. Read what I said: "... your whole discussion of the Kishony and Lenski experiments is irrelevant to the number of transitional fossils."
I'm saying that you have misused the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
Kleinman writes:
Taq tried to make a case for sexual reproduction and recombination but that didn't go so well.
On the contrary, it seems to have gone very well, since nobody disagrees with it but you.
Kleinman writes:
Too bad your opinion ...
Go ahead and point out any opinions that I have expressed that aren't confirmed by evidence.
Kleinman writes:
You have gotten used to your opinion just like many people got used to the opinion that the earth is flat.
You have it backwards, again. The flat-earthers are trying to overturn the accepted paradigm and YOU are trying to overthrow the accepted paradigm. I'm just going with what practically every scientist on earth thinks.
Kleinman writes:
... not your highly biased opinions.
I'll admit to being biased in favor of science - but go ahead and point out any opinions that I have expressed that aren't confirmed by evidence.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2022 8:43 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2022 1:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 401 of 2926 (899472)
10-14-2022 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by Kleinman
10-14-2022 1:23 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Why do you think you can explain descent with modification with a single fossil specimen?
Did I say you could? i said that one transitional fossil is enough to demonstrate that transitional fossils exist.
Kleinman writes:
ringo writes:
Go ahead and point out any opinions that I have expressed that aren't confirmed by evidence.
How about taking a single fossil and claiming this proof of reptiles evolving into birds?
Another thing I didn't say. (You won't hear me talking about "proof".)
Kleinman writes:
And why not be fixated on the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
Because there's a whole world out there. You're wasting your time trying to use Kishony and Lenski as a silver bullet to kill evolution when the rest of the world disagrees with you.
Kleinman writes:
Feel free to repeat yourself while stamping your feet, "I have a fossil of a reptile evolving into a bird and that's scientific evidence because it is a pig".
Another thing I didn't say.
Learn to read.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2022 1:23 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2022 2:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 403 of 2926 (899495)
10-15-2022 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Kleinman
10-14-2022 2:10 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
ringo writes:
i said that one transitional fossil is enough to demonstrate that transitional fossils exist.
A transition to what?
A different species.
Kleinman writes:
Evidence Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Dictionaries are like mathematics. They describe. They do not prescribe.
Kleinman writes:
All the empirical evidence of descent with modification behaves like the Kishony and Lenski experiments. It just happens that the Kishony and Lenski experiments demonstrate this the best.
So give us the second-best and third-best, just for variety. Stop being such a one-trick pony.
Kleinman writes:
And this evidence doesn't kill evolution, it kills the notion of universal common descent.
But what's your goal in killing universal common descent if not to kill evolution? Do you have an alternative idea that includes evolution but NOT universal common descent? (Let me guess: evolution limitied to within "kinds".)
Kleinman writes:
So, when are you going to explain to us the physics and mathematics of descent with modification and how this proves (or is evidence of) universal common descent?
I'm not going to try to use mathematics to try to show that the biologists are wrong. And I'm not going to use mathematics to show that bumble-bees can't fly.
Kleinman writes:
Biologists really need help on this.
You need to learn some respect for biologists. Thinking they're all wrong and you're right is just crazy.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2022 2:10 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 1:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 406 of 2926 (899531)
10-15-2022 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Kleinman
10-15-2022 1:43 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Where are all the fossils that demonstrate the next transitional mutation?
Fossils don't demonstrate mutations. They demonstrate physical changes that may have been caused by a long chain of mutations.
Kleinman writes:
I've already mentioned many examples how the multiplication rule affects descent with modification (adaptation).
Read. We're talking about EXPERIMENTS here. Give us examples of EXPERIMENTS, besides Kishony and Lenski, that confirm your claims.
Kleinman writes:
Descent with modification occurs, biological competition occurs, recombination occurs, selection pressures exist, and universal common descent is mathematically irrational and should not be taught as scientific fact to naive school children.
Read. I asked you for an alternative explanation. Are you saying that evolution only happens within "kinds"?
Kleinman writes:
... biologists have failed to give a correct explanation of the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
There you go again, claiming that you know better than every biologist. And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 1:43 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Dredge, posted 10-15-2022 10:54 PM ringo has replied
 Message 411 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 11:56 PM ringo has replied

  
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