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Author Topic:   Phat Unplugged
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 181 of 192 (898758)
09-29-2022 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by AZPaul3
09-29-2022 2:14 PM


Re: Formal Introduction
To counter the popular consensus by which cleverbot is being programmed.
Call me a Bot Contrarian

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2022 2:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2022 2:34 PM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7324
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 182 of 192 (898760)
09-29-2022 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Phat
09-29-2022 2:26 PM


Re: Formal Introduction
What popular consensus are you trying to counter?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Phat, posted 09-29-2022 2:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 09-29-2022 3:27 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 183 of 192 (898763)
09-29-2022 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by AZPaul3
09-29-2022 2:34 PM


Childs Games Or Artificial Intelligence That Learns?
I've been fascinated with Cleverbot because of how "she" (I choose to call her "she" ) learns. Which got me thinking. I am following along with Greg and Percy as they have at it in Message 729 and then my mind now thinks about programming. (a profession which I know nothing about )
AZOops writes:
You do realize the media is not a monolithic whole. It is as fragmented as the societies it inhabits. You can find a media outlet that will tell you anything you care to believe.

Your bot is not being trained to be more human, whatever the fuck that means. It is a toy to entertain the masses. The bots' responses show nothing but rote regurgitation of inane responses to inane inquiries. There is no humanity to it.

Your bot shows nothing. It means nothing. But if your jollies come from conversing with a worldwide tape recorder, have at it.
TURING TEST: The bots are not amused
Not all bots are built the same. Cleverbot is not scripted like Eugene Goostman, Siri or Cortana, but learns its content, in endless variety, from the public. People talk, argue, roleplay and flirt with it for hours - around 20 million people have in the last year. Cleverbot uses deep context within 180 million lines of conversation, in many languages, and that data is growing by a million a week.
Says its creator, Rollo Carpenter "The popularity of Cleverbot helps to answer those who have questioned the value of any such 'bot'. It is a real entertainment for millions of people, and occupies more leisure time than many a traditional media production."
Referring to the recent claimed Turing Test pass, Carpenter says "There's more than one kind of Turing Test, and any number of interpretations are possible, but we at Existor have to join Ray Kurzweil and others in declaring the Turing Test still open for business. A 30% pass mark is simply too low, and two conversations per 5 minutes made them overly short."
In 2011 Carpenter made no categoric claim for a Turing Test pass when Cleverbot achieved 59% compared to humans' 63%. Previously Cleverbot had achieved 42% at an AI conference in Cambridge. Both were unrestricted tests.
Cleverbot will continue to grow its 'collective intelligence', faster than any team of developers could script. New features include personalizing the way the AI responds, and a gamified Turing Test app has been launched. The software has been re-engineered to use parallel processing, and, says Carpenter "The team has big plans for a future, massively more semantic Cleverbot 2.0. The AI in the movie 'Her' may be closer than you think, with Turing's Test or without."
Some statistics
According to Google Analytics, 16.6 million people have used Cleverbot.com in the last year, in 27.3 million sessions, totalling 1.02 billion interactions. Add in sister site Existor.com, with an avatar, that has seen 2.9 million users in 4.3 million sessions, and 99 million interactions. Then add 2.9 million app sessions. So 20 million users is if anything understated.
1.1 billion interactions at 30 seconds each (the average) is 9.2 million man-hours of usage.
Example conversations
Cleverbot: Do you know what a Turing Test is?
User: No.
Cleverbot: A test given to AI, such as yourself, determining whether or not they can uphold a human conversation.
User: What is AI?
Cleverbot: Artificial intelligence. That's what you are.
User: No, I'm a human.
Cleverbot: But you're not a human. You're a computer.
User: No, I was joking with you to find out if it was a real person...
...
Cleverbot: The Turing Test.
User: What?
Cleverbot: Let us begin.
User: Begin what?
Cleverbot: Your game?
User: What game?!!
Cleverbot: Computer game...
...
User: You are a very smart application.
Cleverbot: I'm not a machine.
User: Humans are also machines.
Cleverbot: Inefficient machines.
User: But they are still machines.
Cleverbot is a fun toy, but "it" really is getting smarter.

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

Edited by Phat, .

Edited by Phat, .


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2022 2:34 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 184 of 192 (899203)
10-10-2022 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
06-25-2015 9:19 AM


Reanswering a 7 year old question
Do any of you remember Jon? He asked me a good question in 2015.
In the previous post, I began by describing 4 basic social groups of which and to which I belong. Jon asked me to elaborate.
Jon writes:
My question to you: what do you think each of these groups offers for you personally? In what way have they helped you grow, and have any maybe held you back?
Phat in 2015 writes:
My Church
EvC Forum
My workplace and the union, Local 7
The public-at-large
Let's update, shall we?
The church at large has changed, but in many ways is still stereotypically conservative. My current church is probably Ed Taylors Calvary Chapel. dwise1 remembers Chuck Smith in California. (The Jesus Freaks and all that. Calvary Chapel became somewhat of a franchised name, but if I understand correctly, each individual Calvary Chapel has a character and (perhaps) a specific mission or calling of its own. The church in Aurora, Colorado is loving and warm and I am getting to know them more each week. I usually go on Wednesday nights and take a friend or two (assuming of course that my friend wanted to go. Tangle would prefer a fishing trip, while Ringo prefers libraries and spare change walks. Son Goku had a particularly interesting post Message 937 related to my train of thought.
EvC Forum is still a place to go and rant, but I feel a responsibility to hone my discussion/debate skills out of respect for my opponents and not so much emphasis on "winning" the argument---something I rarely do anyway.
The workplace is a place where I not only go to work and do my job but is a place to also talk (while I work) I am the Shop Steward at my place of employment and try and keep up with Union training seminars so as to help my coworkers if needed.
As for the public-at-large, they are all around us.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 06-25-2015 9:19 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by dwise1, posted 10-10-2022 6:36 PM Phat has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5475
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 185 of 192 (899221)
10-10-2022 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Phat
10-10-2022 7:50 AM


Re: Reanswering a 7 year old question
My current church is probably Ed Taylors Calvary Chapel. dwise1 remembers Chuck Smith in California. (The Jesus Freaks and all that. Calvary Chapel became somewhat of a franchised name, but if I understand correctly, each individual Calvary Chapel has a character and (perhaps) a specific mission or calling of its own.
I seem to recall from long ago as new Calvary Chapels were springing up in other parts of Orange County that they were independent, but there was also some tenet of faith that they had to maintain, or maybe some kind of organizational requirement. I think the one in Mission Viejo was the first new one and that it was founded by Chuck Smith's son. All I heard about it was from a couple with young children who joined our UU church: they had gone there and were appalled by being commanded to beat their children, so they left and were glad to find our church. Also, conversation in the dancers' group of the 50-plus singles ministry of Rick Warren's Saddleback Church turned to talking about that same Calvary Chapel church and how extremely legalistic they were -- you know, like the NT mischaracterization of the Pharisees as being, obsessing over every little dot and tittle of every little law (even though the Golden Rule came from the Pharisees who taught that it replaced all the other laws). IOW, those fundamentalists were exactly like they accused the Pharisees as having been.
Chuck Smith's (he died a few years ago well before the pandemic) Calvary Chapel was the first one, to my knowledge. It's called "Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa" even though for as long as I've known of it (starting around 1969) it has always been in Santa Ana -- actually, on the Santa Ana side of Sunflower Avenue, which forms the border between Costa Mesa and Santa Ana. My older sister and her husband are members and he verified my suspicion that it had gone through its own "church in a box" phase (as our UU church had done during which we'd get a public use permit to use school auditoriums) and that they would meet at a member's house in Costa Mesa.
But while each Calvary Chapel can have its own "personality", I've noticed that that personality can evolve over time. I have noticed that happening with the Costa Mesa church.
I use the analogy of the evolution of a virus as presented by Michael Crichton MD in his book, The Andromeda Strain. Basically, a virus will evolve into forms with strategies that enable it to reproduce more (basic natural selection in action). In the case of the extraterrestrial virus in the book, it started out very aggressive and deadly, but it's not a very good strategy for a virus to kill the host before it has a chance to spread, so variants that are not so deadly will spread more readily and take over. Thus there's a tendency for a virus to become less deadly over time. In the opposite direction there's the example of syphilis which was fairly benign in the native American population where lack of much clothing allowed for it to spread readily through skin contact. But it became virulent when Europeans brought it back with them and it could not spread as readily through the layers of clothing Europeans wore, so becoming more virulent was its new strategy.
Church personality evolves in a similar way. At first, it was going through explosive growth which was driven by aggressive street proselytizing (not unlike your plan to accost and covert school children in back alleys, remember that discussion?). During that time, you couldn't turn around without somebody trying to convert you. In fact, that trait of that church still impacts it as non-members, remembering having suffered through that time, still want nothing to do with fundies and regard them with contempt. At first the term "Jesus Freak" was meant as an insult, but like blacks have done with the "n-word", the fundies chose to embrace the name. Though it probably didn't hurt that many of them were burned-out hippies and "freak" is another name for "hippy" and some of their slogans were borrowed from their former drug culture (eg, "Hooked on Jesus" was a popular bumper sticker at the time.
It was during that time that I read their proselytizing training materials (much use of cartoons depicting a "conversation" with the intended victim in which the "saved one" would hit his mark with difficult questions intended to be unanswerable by the mark and hence would either throw him off balance and more open to conversion or else to discredit him and his position in the eyes of bystanders. Half a century later, we still see that tactic being used by creationists like Kleinman and Dredge (candle2 and eWolf have tried it, but they're even weaker at it than Dredge is).
In that initial "Jesus Freak" phase, they were very virulent using hardcore proselytizing tactics against everybody they could and it did work in growing their numbers, so it was successful and persisted ... for a time. A key teaching, more of an obsession for many of them, was The Rapture and The End Times. And finding "666" everywhere they could -- in barcodes (eg, claiming that the Mark of the Beast would be a barcode tattooed on your forehead in order to buy anything), I'm pretty sure I saw a gov't building (IRS or Social Security I seem to recall) in Santa Ana at the time with a 666 street address, but the one that they have all missed in the present day is Jared Kushner's NYC address of 666 Fifth Avenue.
True story: at one job our company president was third-generation fundamentalist and his son was fourth-generation. Since their connection predated and bypassed the Jesus Freaks, they did not engage in proselytizing and were actually very nice people to know and to work with. The son graduated from high school and went to attend Northwestern in Chicago, but he'd fly back home between semesters and would work with us (automated greenhouse control systems). After his first semester he said school was going OK, but he felt lonely since he didn't know anyone. Knowing that many colleges have campus Christian clubs, I suggested he try one at least for fellowship. He said he had tried that and would never make that mistake again. All those clubs would do would be to devise plans for converting the other students. That was around 1990 and they were still at it.
So what changed here? The story goes that early Christians took Jesus' promise to return within their lifetimes very seriously to the point where they wouldn't even plant trees because they would never mature to bear fruit before the Second Coming. But finally they had to admit that it wasn't going to happen so they returned to planting trees and other activities for building the future.
The same happened at Calvary Chapel. These burned-out hippie Jesus Freaks started getting a life and having to start building a future: they fell in love and got married, got a job or even a profession, bought a house, had children, then grandchildren. Their numbers were already up and growth in church membership came from having children (which would then drive a later phase). As a result they engaged much less in overt proselytizing and more in simply "witnessing". Not only did they have less need to drive up membership, but they also had other priorities (the ones that come with getting a life) as well as less free time to engage in proselytizing.
Oh, that drive to proselytize is still there, but it seems to be funneled into anti-abortion and creationism. And they always did and still do push for what's now called Christian Nationalism (formerly Christian Reconstructionism, Dominion Theology).
One thing that may have weaned them off the End Times fanaticism was when it came to something of a head in the 80's with the arrival of a conspiracy theorist who claimed to have formerly been a practicing Satanist with stories of newborn babies being sacrificed, etc. He stirred up a lot of trouble at Calvary and Melodyland (a theater-in-the-round across from Disneyland when then became a church). I've asked them casually about it and nobody wants to talk about it; I'll allow that the stories I heard are probably exaggerations.
Well, now they seem to be entering a new phase of more aggressive proselytizing because of their children -- the chickens are not coming home to roost, but rather are fleeing the coop. Even churches' own youth ministries admit that they have a very serious problem as about 75% (figures range from 65% to 80%) of their children raised in the faith are fleeing, running as fast as they can away from religion. Youth ministers are trying to figure out what's causing it and they blame everything else that they can but never consider that it might be caused by those children's experiences growing up in that religion. Of course, I immediately want to blame the pack of lies which is creationism and will point to instances of deconversion after discovering the truth about science and evolution (and the age of the earth, etc). But if you read the testimonials at deconversion sites such as ExChristian.Net: Testimonials you find that in many cases it they deconverted because of psychological damage that the religion had done them.
But whatever the causes, there's still the fact that churches are losing the next generation, so their membership is dropping. When you lose the kids, then you have to go out and recruit new members. Which from what I hear it's what's happening at Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa. My sister and brother-in-law are about 80 years old and they are feeling disaffected at Calvary. Besides losing their old friends and Chuck Smith, the mood/personality of the place has been changing. MAGAt influence, COVID denial, Christian Nationalism, Qanon conspiracy theorizing, push to return to hardcore proselytizing, etc. I think my sister still meets with her Bible study group, but they no longer feel very much at home there now. They are getting ready to move to Georgia and will probably look into attending a church there.
So while an individual church can have its own "personality", that personality can and does change over time.
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 10-10-2022 7:50 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 10-10-2022 10:33 PM dwise1 has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 186 of 192 (899237)
10-10-2022 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by dwise1
10-10-2022 6:36 PM


Re: Reanswering a 7 year old question
dwise1 writes:
It was during that time that I read their proselytizing training materials (much use of cartoons depicting a "conversation" with the intended victim in which the "saved one" would hit his mark with difficult questions intended to be unanswerable by the mark and hence would either throw him off balance and more open to conversion or else to discredit him and his position in the eyes of bystanders.
Speaking of which, I got a Chick tract in the mail the other day ("This is your life"). Good old Jack Chick. Death hasn't slowed him down.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by dwise1, posted 10-10-2022 6:36 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2022 3:46 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 10-11-2022 7:01 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5475
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 187 of 192 (899254)
10-11-2022 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
10-10-2022 10:33 PM


Re: Reanswering a 7 year old question
Members of my high school friend's family converted to fundamentalism through Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel. He and I, both still atheists, became "fellow travelers" where we learned what they were teaching and preaching.
I had left Christianity half a decade before because I started reading the Bible to see what I was supposed to believe and I found that without a doubt I could not believe what I was reading, so I left. My mistake was assuming that I had to take what I was reading literally, which I don't even know whether my church required that. So it's ironic that now I was seeing a church that explicitly required my stupid assumption, biblical literalism, which means that I really couldn't believe what they were selling. Then studying creationism a decade later succeeded in permanently immunizing me from such religious nonsense.
My friend and I would read their materials and discuss them. A popular genre were "novels" about the End Times, all of them badly written. Many months ago (years probably) I watch a YouTube video discussing why Christian movies are bad; I think that it is this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_3J6Go5Ng&t=421s . Either this or another video compares Christian films and normal films for their cinematography and editing showing where Christian films fall flat and why they do. This video gets into a reason for that, which is that, whereas normal films are made by filmmakers whose goal is to make cinematographic art, Christian films are made by preachers whose goal is to preach a sermon. And I think that the same was true of those Christian novels and which was why they were so poorly written.
We also read every Chick Pubs tract we could lay our hands on (and they were laying around everywhere). Always good for a laugh. A few decades later in a public restroom someone what left Chick tracts in every stall, which I found to be a poor idea. The pages are too small for effective use as toilet paper in case the regular stuff ran out -- Sears & Roebuck catalogs they ain't!
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 10-10-2022 10:33 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 188 of 192 (899260)
10-11-2022 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
10-10-2022 10:33 PM


Re: Reanswering a 7 year old question
I always thought his tracts were simplistic and corny.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 10-10-2022 10:33 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 189 of 192 (903064)
12-02-2022 12:59 PM


Phats YouTube Beliefs-Secular Side.
I will admit that I have replaced Faith as EvC's resident conservative(I say moderate) Loon and I stand by my sanity to this very day.(December 2nd, 2022) When it comes to my Spiritual beliefs, that will be for another post. In this post I want to reemphasize the line of thought that I follow in regard to the financial future of the world-at-large and the United States in particular.
Many of you have challenged my beliefs (and my sanity) and I want to thank you for bringing up thoughtful considerations and counter-arguments backed by solid data. For the record, I visited my primary care doctor 2 days ago and had blood work.(metabolic panel and A1C reading) I expect an A1C in the neighborhood of 8. I can already feel (the drop) helping my mind and my mental clarity.
YouTube videos are no substitute for reading, but a well done documentary is not a bad source of information. Granted, both political ideologies mention disinformation, propaganda, and "fake news" as a political weapon. Thats for another post, however. Here are two of the videos that I can agree with that explain the demise of our financial system (the first one) and the view of Dalio regarding the rise and fall of empires.(the 2nd one, which I have already posted elsewhere. I dont expect anyone to watch them, but I wanted to post them in my thread so that a year to 3 years from now we can look back and see if I was still a loon, despite my improved blood sugar readings!

I also watch a lot of the click bait, but I usually dismiss it as simple hustling. People want you to watch their videos because it earns them likes and perhaps a small amount of money on YouTube.
My critics here at EvC in regards to my financial/economic global outlook include Percy, Tangle, Theodoric, and jar, the absent Texas panhandler. Now on to the Spiritual belief post.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Theodoric, posted 12-02-2022 1:13 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 190 of 192 (903065)
12-02-2022 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Phat
12-02-2022 12:59 PM


Re: Phats YouTube Beliefs-Secular Side.
End of the Road is nothing but goldbug propaganda. I am researching who is behind it but looks like it was marketing material for gold selling firms. Look at comments on IMDB and other places. Seems odd that they were calling for a collapse but it never happened. This video is over 11 years old. Time has not treated it well.
Phat found another shiny object.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 12-02-2022 12:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Phat, posted 12-02-2022 1:54 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 191 of 192 (903067)
12-02-2022 1:38 PM


Phats Spiritual Worldview
Ever since I came to this forum, I have claimed to be a Christian. Ringo, my challenger in this area, has admittedly had a good argument that I am not a Christian but a Faux Christian. (One of my friends here in Denver calls the term "Wishtians".
We here at the Forum have argued about spirituality, reality vs fantasy, the Christian Right, relativity as a principle regarding God, gods, and beliefs, and the disconnect between my professed beliefs and my actions and written comments. I won't deny that I am often hypocritical. (My friend also has a word he invented for that! Hypochristians )
I believe that there is one GOD. I believe that Jesus Christ is Gods human character,
To be continued...

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 192 of 192 (903068)
12-02-2022 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Theodoric
12-02-2022 1:13 PM


Re: Phats YouTube Beliefs-Secular Side.
The logic behind the theory of "collapse" or reset is sound and backed by facts. The world used to be on a strict gold standard back in...oh I think it was 1900 or so, before the Federal Reserve was formed. There were horrendous market and financial crashes back then. I need to research my claims more to back them with facts, but I have heard no counterargument that supports modern economic theory (based entirely on trust with no value backing it). Bretton Woods pegged the US Dollar as the global reserve currency. In 1946, the dollar was literally as good as gold. The rest of the nations knew that the United States was trustworthy so they stashed their gold here. We (the US) had roughly 65% of the worlds known gold not held in private hands.
In 1933, FDR confiscated all privately held gold and reset the value from $20.00 to $35.00 an ounce. This was a betrayal of trust from the government to the people. I doubt that any government would dare try it again, but I could be wrong. Gold stayed relatively stable at $35.00 an ounce all throughout the fifties, sixties, and became a problem when the US needed more finances than they had gold. Nixon came along in 1971 decoupling the dollar from gold and partially undoing one of the precepts of Bretton Woods.
For these modern rubes who look at the Dollar as the bedrock of value (in other words the full faith and trust of the people as the standard) they need only look as far as the fact that the world is deep in debt, beyond ability to repay, and gold sits as a rock of stability in contrast to global inflation's, deflation's, revaluations, and manipulations of the currency backed by "the people".
Dalio mentions China as being the next rising empire--in fact, China's own goal is to be the dominant global superpower by no later that 2047. I will talk more about Dalio over in the Book Nook. I just got the paper copy of his book in the mail. You googled a rebuttal to his precepts (as you often do) which only shows that you are already predisposed to be biased against my worldview. In fact, I could almost say that the liberal socialist globalist agenda (if there even is such a thing) would be more likely embraced by the peanut gallery than it ever would by me myself.
As for that first documentary, it is far more than an infomercial for "goldbugs"!
transcript writes:
22:48
an educational system that explains that look when you print money when you have nothing backing in and when you debase
22:55
it you have all the side effects that you see higher inflation costs corruption
23:02
cronyism all the things that have been in headlines that we've seen over the last four or
23:07
five years the protest movements are an interesting phenomenon
23:12
a lot of people are terribly upset with wall street they're upset what's
23:17
happening to their purchasing power they're upset with the news that they hear
23:22
of the fact that the executives of these giant banks are getting million dollar bonuses at the same time they're dipping
23:29
into the pockets of the taxpayers to get all this bailout money and so they're angry unfortunately people are
23:35
demonstrating against the crisis the economic crisis and yet at the same time they're
23:40
demanding more welfare demanding more medical benefits they're demanding more state
23:47
control and regulation of their lives they're demanding more money being created and pumped into the
23:52
society they don't realize that those are the very things that have brought them onto the street in the first place
23:58
in their anger while the person on the street is
24:04
struggling to get by we're told that what we're experiencing is a typical recession
24:10
why then does this current crisis feel different to previous economic recessions
24:16
this is far from typical i think this is the end game i think what we're experiencing now are the pains
24:23
of the 40-year experiment in fiat currency coming to an end and it is an absolute
24:30
failure not only for america but for the entire world up until 2008 we've been borrowing more
24:39
and more money to maintain our standard of living are we now at the point where we're
24:44
maxed out and cannot take on any more new debt
The documentary makes perfect sense. You dont want to face it and address it because you dont even understand what money is or what determines its value. Why not ask your financial advisor for his prediction where your investments will go?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Theodoric, posted 12-02-2022 1:13 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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