|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:So, Tanypteryx doesn't explain the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. It sure looks like you are the one that doesn't understand the basic concepts of biological evolution. That's ok, I can explain those concepts to you, I just hope I don't overwhelm you. Kleinman:How long do we have to wait for you to explain the physics and mathematics of the evolution of the organism that you study? Kleinman:Why should you be alienated because I explain the flaws in the concept of universal common descent? Is it really that important to you that you believe that you are related to chimpanzees? Don't you think it is more important to give the correct explanation of the evolution of drug-resistant microbes and why cancer treatments fail? You have some pretty twisted priorities in your belief system. Tanypteryx:The math I've presented explains why combination herbicides suppress the evolution of herbicide-resistant weeds and combination pesticides suppress the evolution of pesticide-resistant insects. The same principles also apply to combination rodenticides suppressing the evolution of rodenticide-resistant rodents. Aren't these all complex, sexually reproducing, multicellular organisms? It's all about the multiplication rule of probabilities, a basic mathematical principle that applies to adaptive evolution. You are showing that you don't understand the basic concepts of biological evolution. Tanypteryx:Taq is the one claiming that multiple adaptive alleles can fix simultaneously in a population. Taq hasn't found any blunders in my analysis or explanation. And neither have you. But there is a major blunder in the way biologists do their inferential phylogenetics and you can't see it. It is clear that you need a hint. Statistics for Dummies quote: Tanypteryx:Edward Tatum already pointed out the effect of the multiplication rule on adaptive evolution in his 1958 Nobel Laureate Lecture. Biologists are just really slow at learning this basic concept.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
|
Taq hasn't found any blunders in my analysis or explanation. Taq pointed out your ignorance in every post.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Does that mean you aren't going to explain the physics and mathematics of the biological evolution of the organisms that you study? How sad. Are there any biologists on this forum that understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution? It really isn't that difficult.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
|
Are there any biologists on this forum that understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution?
The biologists on this forum understand that you are incorrect in your insistence that your calculations apply to anything other than bacteria and viruses. In sexually reproducing organisms, offspring inherit mutations from their parents and pass them plus their new mutations on to their offspring. It really isn't that difficult.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
|
Does that mean you aren't going to explain the physics and mathematics of the biological evolution of the organisms that you study? Whenever you say things like this, you display your own ignorance. Evolution doesn't use mathematics. Yes, it is possible to build a mathematical model. But in that case, you are talking about the mathematics of your model rather than about the mathematics of evolution. And, by the way, your model is broken.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Let's see if we get this right. Your science of evolution doesn't use mathematics, it doesn't use physical laws, and it doesn't use experimentation. No wonder biologists have failed to explain the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail. nwr:The mathematical model I presented predicted the behavior of the Kishony experiment before Kishony ran his experiment. And this model along with Haldane's model of fixation simulates and predicts the behavior of the Lenski experiment, including why biological evolutionary competition slows biological evolutionary adaptation. What have biologists predicted with their claim that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals? nwr:Do you have a better explanation for why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments? Come on, you claim to be a mathematician. Try putting an equation to that data. Or is the best you can do is tell a fish story.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
|
And, by the way, your model is broken. Plus, I'm still wondering why he thinks it's important to mention the laws of thermodynamics so often when he talks about his mutations and selection? And why doesn't he ever analyze all those other types of selection that we see out in the field? And what's he got against fossil tea leaves?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:As long as reproduction includes replication of the genome, there is a possibility of one or more errors in that replication of that genome. It doesn't matter whether replication is by cloning, mitosis, or meiosis. DNA replication is DNA replication. It really isn't that difficult. In fact, the math is so trivial, it can be done by someone with the understanding of a high school-level probability course. It is really not that hard to superimpose recombination on the process as well. You should try it, you might learn something about the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
|
Let's see if we get this right. Your science of evolution doesn't use mathematics, it doesn't use physical laws, and it doesn't use experimentation. No, you have not got that right. May I suggest that you stop trying to tell me what I believe. You make terrible guesses.
Do you have a better explanation for why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments? Those were very limited experiments. You are reading far too much into them.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
|
Plus, I'm still wondering why he thinks it's important to mention the laws of thermodynamics so often when he talks about his mutations and selection? That's probably because he is a creationist, and creationists have weird ideas about thermodynamics.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
|
That's probably because he is a creationist, and creationists have weird ideas about thermodynamics. True, and he's a really weird creationist. He appears to have a top notch education but then he corrupts it to promote this nonsense.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
nmr:Descent with modification (DNA adaptation) is a second law of thermodynamics process where the random trial is a replication. Biological evolutionary competition is a first law of thermodynamics conservation of energy process. Biological evolutionary competition slows the descent with modification process because it limits the number of replications that the most fit variant can do. That's why the Kishony populations evolve more rapidly to their selection condition than the Lenski populations do to their selection condition. Tanypteryx:Different selection conditions target different genetic loci. The Kishony experiment uses a toxin that targets a single genetic locus. The Lenski experiment uses starvation which targets every energy-requiring metabolic pathway, ie multiple genetic loci. Thermal stress will target multiple genetic loci, predation might target one or more genetic loci. What all these selection conditions have in common is that if a single mutation can give improved reproductive fitness to that member, it will take about 1/(mutation rate) replications for that mutation to have a reasonable probability of occurring. If it takes 2 or more mutations to give improved fitness, the number of replications goes up exponentially. Tanypteryx:The problem is that reading fossil tea leaves doesn't correctly explain the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. Each adaptive mutational step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments takes about a billion replications. You should have transitional fossil forms coming out of your ears if universal common descent was true.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Tanypteryx:It may seem weird to you but it didn't seem weird to my employer in the aerospace industry that paid me a lot of money for that skill. I also was paid to teach thermodynamics and heat transfer at the university level, both undergraduate and graduate levels. It was my major field for my PhD and I also hold a state engineering license which requires training, experience, and examination to receive.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
nwr:It's not so weird if you want to understand how antimicrobial drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. But I am different than most Creationists in that I think that Darwin is qualitatively correct. What Darwin didn't understand is the limitations of the physical processes that he was observing.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
|
Descent with modification (DNA adaptation) is a second law of thermodynamics process where the random trial is a replication. Sorry, what random trial? So, the second law is an important term in your equation?
Biological evolutionary competition is a first law of thermodynamics conservation of energy process So, the first law is an important term in your equation?
What all these selection conditions have in common is that if a single mutation can give improved reproductive fitness to that member, it will take about 1/(mutation rate) replications for that mutation to have a reasonable probability of occurring. If it takes 2 or more mutations to give improved fitness, the number of replications goes up exponentially. What you keep ignoring is the fact that many species have millions of mutations happening in every generation that are passed to descendants. These mutations are happening on multiple chromosome and on multiple genes that can all be passed to offspring along with mutations from past ancestors. Most genes are not under selection and are passed on to descendants and neutral mutations keep getting passed on and accumulating in descendants too. You say only one of them can be beneficial in a billion generations and then the next after another billion generations.
The problem is that reading fossil tea leaves doesn't correctly explain the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. Well, you may be right. I couldn't find a single record of fossil tea leaves, Camellia sinensis I would also note that evolutionary biology doesn't use mathematics, but evolutionary science does.
You should have transitional fossil forms coming out of your ears if universal common descent was true. Good prediction, it turns out we do. I guess while you were getting that fancy education you didn't visit and university fossil collections. Probably too busy taking those high school probability coursesStop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024