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Author
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Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 526 of 1864 (899026)
10-06-2022 10:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 525 by Dredge
10-06-2022 8:25 PM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
Dredge writes: The Holy Spirit has certainly "done its job" ... infallibly, in fact, through the Catholic Church.
It has failed to cover up a lot of the child-molesting. A cynic might even wonder why an infallible Holy Spirit would appoint so many child molesters to lofty positions in the Church.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 525 by Dredge, posted 10-06-2022 8:25 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 527 by Dredge, posted 10-07-2022 12:07 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: 09-06-2016
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Message 527 of 1864 (899028)
10-07-2022 12:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 526 by ringo
10-06-2022 10:20 PM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
ringo writes: A cynic might even wonder why an infallible Holy Spirit would appoint so many child molesters to lofty positions in the Church.
... in which case that cynic would not understand that he is conflating two very different and separate things. 1. The Holy Spirit guarantees to provide infallible interpretations of Scripture through the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. 2. The Holy Spirit does not override the free will of any human being nor prevent anyone from choosing to sin ... regardless of their position in the Church.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 526 by ringo, posted 10-06-2022 10:20 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 533 by ringo, posted 10-07-2022 11:39 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 528 of 1864 (899030)
10-07-2022 3:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 523 by ringo
10-06-2022 12:51 PM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
ringo writes: Alpha Centauri has no effect on my life (just like your God). I can totally disregard Alpha Centauri with no problem at all.
Many positive habits or systems have a positive measurable change on and in my life. Did I simply freely or willfully choose to implement these small yet significant changes on a day that was specific? Yes. Why was that day specific over any other day? I've no clue. But the changes are beginning to snowball. As an example, my average blood sugar reading is 184. That's over a hundred points lower than a month ago. Why is it that I had no power to even lower my blood sugar a point for many years? And why, after only a month of small changes do I suddenly feel empowered? I say that in my mind, God made a change.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 523 by ringo, posted 10-06-2022 12:51 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 532 by nwr, posted 10-07-2022 10:17 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 534 by ringo, posted 10-07-2022 11:48 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 536 by Theodoric, posted 10-07-2022 1:50 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 529 of 1864 (899031)
10-07-2022 4:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 525 by Dredge
10-06-2022 8:25 PM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
I'm one of the 45,000 who disagree. And I don't even go to church that much. But I will confidently say that the Roman Catholic Church has no monopoly on the Holy Spirit
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 525 by Dredge, posted 10-06-2022 8:25 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 538 by Dredge, posted 10-07-2022 9:58 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 530 of 1864 (899032)
10-07-2022 4:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 524 by dwise1
10-06-2022 1:59 PM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
dwise1 writes: Why didn't Phat declare Alpha Centauri to be a Trinity? To use an analogy, we know that it is a polynomial. 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 524 by dwise1, posted 10-06-2022 1:59 PM | | dwise1 has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 531 of 1864 (899033)
10-07-2022 4:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 525 by Dredge
10-06-2022 8:25 PM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
Dredge writes: The Holy Spirit has certainly "done its job" ... infallibly, in fact, through the Catholic Church. Catholics used to call it the Holy Ghost. Used to make me laugh - god's spook. He's actually the Holy Rapist though isn't he? He certainly did his job, just ask Mary. “ The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you” Catholic priests have carried on the tradition of rape right up to the current day. Catholics are very fond of their traditions.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 525 by Dredge, posted 10-06-2022 8:25 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 532 of 1864 (899038)
10-07-2022 10:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 528 by Phat
10-07-2022 3:59 AM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
I say that in my mind, God made a change. And I say that Phat made a change.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 528 by Phat, posted 10-07-2022 3:59 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 540 by Phat, posted 10-08-2022 12:44 PM | | nwr has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 533 of 1864 (899039)
10-07-2022 11:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 527 by Dredge
10-07-2022 12:07 AM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
Dredge writes: The Holy Spirit guarantees to provide infallible interpretations of Scripture through the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.
So your loophole is that the scriptures don't forbid child-molesting.
Dredge writes: The Holy Spirit does not override the free will of any human being nor prevent anyone from choosing to sin ... regardless of their position in the Church.
Then the Holy Spirit's job description should be re-written. Preventing child-molesting by church officials certainly SHOULD be part of its job.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 527 by Dredge, posted 10-07-2022 12:07 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 535 by Theodoric, posted 10-07-2022 1:32 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 534 of 1864 (899040)
10-07-2022 11:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 528 by Phat
10-07-2022 3:59 AM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes: Many positive habits or systems have a positive measurable change on and in my life.
Mine too. But I don't misattribute them to some non-exixtant entity.
Phat writes: Did I simply freely or willfully choose to implement these small yet significant changes on a day that was specific? Yes. Why was that day specific over any other day?
What difference does that make? If the circumstances were time-sensitive, how can you determine that the timing wasn't coincidental?
Phat writes: But the changes are beginning to snowball.
If you mean you're getting worse, some here would agree.
Phat writes: As an example, my average blood sugar reading is 184. That's over a hundred points lower than a month ago.
But your posts are just as crazy as they were a month ago.
Phat writes: Why is it that I had no power to even lower my blood sugar a point for many years?
Good question. Why did the Holy Spirit not help you long ago?
Phat writes: And why, after only a month of small changes do I suddenly feel empowered?
You seemed to think you were pretty "empowered" before. You were pretty arrogant about it back then.
Phat writes: I say that in my mind, God made a change.
I agree that it's all in your mind.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 528 by Phat, posted 10-07-2022 3:59 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 535 of 1864 (899043)
10-07-2022 1:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 533 by ringo
10-07-2022 11:39 AM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
So your loophole is that the scriptures don't forbid child-molesting.
In some christian churches it is a sacrament.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 533 by ringo, posted 10-07-2022 11:39 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 536 of 1864 (899044)
10-07-2022 1:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 528 by Phat
10-07-2022 3:59 AM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
When I get overweight or feel rundown, I make small changes to improve my physical and mental health. No casperish being tells me to or helps me. I make the decision, I make the plan and I stick to the plan or don't. A couple of weeks ago I was back up over 205 lbs. I stopped drinking soda, severely limited my alcohol intake, and eliminated chocolate. Down under 200 lbs on way to 190lbs. When I hit that goal I will decide whether to continue or not. No spiritous rapist will be involved.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 528 by Phat, posted 10-07-2022 3:59 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 537 by dwise1, posted 10-07-2022 6:08 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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dwise1
Member Posts: 5952 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 537 of 1864 (899050)
10-07-2022 6:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 536 by Theodoric
10-07-2022 1:50 PM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
When I get overweight or feel rundown, I make small changes to improve my physical and mental health. No casperish being tells me to or helps me. I make the decision, I make the plan and I stick to the plan or don't. Look at any system. Short-term, there are a lot of fluctuations. But long-term we can see definite trends. For example, there's the stock market. Relying on conventional wisdom here, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, there is a lot of fluctuation. But conventional wisdom tells us that overall the market will climb, so one should not react to immediate fluctuations. And yet those wanting to game the system (*) try to rely on those immediate fluctuations to gain some kind of immediate advantage. I never got to that level of engineering theory. You have a system. That system has some optimal norm. You react to changes in that system away from that norm, which causes changes whose results deviate wildly in the opposite direction from that norm, which causes corrective actions that swing even more wildly in the opposite direction. Which results in oscillations that make a mess of everything. That's the result of positive feedback. Negative feedback works better, but it also has its problems. It is complicated. A paper I was given to read was based on PID: Proportional, Integrative, Derivate. Your initial response should be proportional, but then you also look at how the changes are adding up (integrative), while also looking at the rate at which they are changing (derivative). These systems are not simple and anyone who tells you that they are is lying to you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 536 by Theodoric, posted 10-07-2022 1:50 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: 09-06-2016
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Message 538 of 1864 (899058)
10-07-2022 9:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 529 by Phat
10-07-2022 4:03 AM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes: I'm one of the 45,000 who disagree. And I don't even go to church that much. But I will confidently say that the Roman Catholic Church has no monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
The first mistake non-Catholic Christians (nCCs) make is believing that the Bible is the primary source of Christian knowledge and the "pillar and foundation of the truth" ... but it isn't - the CHURCH is (1Tim 3:15). The Bible came from the Church, not vice-versa. The second mistake nCCs make is believing that the guidance of the Holy Spirit enables every individual Christian to correctly interpret Scripture and thus determine correct and full doctrine. This is nonsense ... clearly evidenced by the fact there exists an almost infinite number of different and conflicting interpretations of Scripture outside the Catholic Church. If the HS were guiding each and every nCC, they would all be expressing exactly the same interpretations ... but they don't. Furthermore, it strikes me as really odd that - despite claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit - no nCCs has enough confidence in themselves or the Holy Spirit to declare that their personal interpretation of Scripture is infallibly correct. Ask them who has the infallible interpretation of Scripture and they can't tell you ... so much for the guidance of the Holy Spirit! Jesus said the HS "will guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13), but nCCs don't know what "all the truth" is bcoz they don't know anyone who has "all the truth"!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 529 by Phat, posted 10-07-2022 4:03 AM | | Phat has replied |
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candle2
Member Posts: 850 Joined: 12-31-2018 Member Rating: 1.2
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Message 539 of 1864 (899077)
10-08-2022 10:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 522 by Phat
10-06-2022 12:24 PM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat, the trinity in its present form came to us by the counterfeit and universal church. 300 of the 318 delegates at Nicaea (325 AD) were intimidated into voting in favor of the trinity. Anyone not supporting belief in the trinity was declared a heretic, and subject to exile and/or death. The Pope was on an equal footing with the Emperor in the Holy Roman Empire. In many instances the Pope held more power than the Emperor. Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs. These so-called holy men in robes had dissenters burned and tortured. Oftentimes they would bind a person and stake one of his legs to a fire until the individual would recant any and all beliefs contrary to the church's views. The universal Church strictly forbad it subjects from owning Bibles. They also refused the Bible to be written in any language except Latin. I realize that the Catholic Church claim that the Apostle Peter was the first pope. However, Peter was not the Apostle sent to the Gentiles; Paul was. Neither the OT nor the NT defines the Holy Spirit as a person. How could ancient Israel believe in the trinity when they rejected Christ?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 522 by Phat, posted 10-06-2022 12:24 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 546 by Dredge, posted 10-08-2022 6:47 PM | | candle2 has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 540 of 1864 (899084)
10-08-2022 12:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 532 by nwr
10-07-2022 10:17 AM
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Re: Topic Synopsis
Why cant it be both, acting in Communion?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 532 by nwr, posted 10-07-2022 10:17 AM | | nwr has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 542 by nwr, posted 10-08-2022 1:06 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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