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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 886 of 895 (898093)
09-18-2022 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 885 by ringo
09-18-2022 2:59 PM


Gishing It Out With Ringo
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.
You've read the book.
ringo writes:
I have - and that's how I know that God Himself said, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
Dont Gish me, either. You claim God Himself said it, but when anything in the book supports your argument you focus on it. When I bring up the Book of Revelation and have a perfectly good counter-argument, you accuse me of Gishing it were true. I have said many many many times that God logically created the possibility of evil. If you disagree, explain to me how evil could manifest without an action by a human.
ringo writes:
And God also creates evil, as He said Himself ((Isaiah 45:7).
The book says He said it. Am I not allowed to elaborate or speculate on what a book written by humans means? Jesus said there is none good but God. Was He lying?
ringo writes:
But Jesus DOESN"T represent personified good. If He is God and God creates evil, then He represents good AND evil.
That's not what the book says. That's what ringo concludes.
ringo writes:
Goats - like you - PRETEND to follow Jesus - and Jesus sends them to everlasting fire.
Jesus and I have a give-and-take relationship. He commands. I question. If He ultimately sends me to hell, you will have won the argument. Note that the sheep and goats story has not yet happened. At this point, we don't know who the sheep are and who the goats are.
ringo writes:
It has nothing to do with whether or not Satan exists. God Himself SAID that He creates evil (Isaiah 45:7). There is no need for any other source of evil.
If God were both good and evil, as your lame interpretation of His character suggests, He would have plainly said "I AM good and evil. I AM complete." In which case, humans are all let off the hook for being responsible for what they do, since it is all up to God anyway.
ringo writes:
I threw away each hook, line, and sinker - of your theology, not of the Bible - individually, because they're individually nonsense.
Well, I can't do the same to you. You defend a book full of characters you doubt even exist. And don't go trotting out your argument that Long John Silver or Bilbo Baggins don't exist and yet are themselves in books. It too is a lame argument. You can't judge someone by a book that you think was written by humans.
Phat writes:
You can throw them ALL away, including the One. But in your head, you gotta serve somebody!
Maybe I serve Bob Dylan.
Well he is Jewish, so one messiah is as good as another.
Phat writes:
Also I might again mention the book of revelation.
ringo writes:
What has that got to do with what we're talking about?
This started out with you saying, and I quote:
quote:
Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.
It is you who are Gishing. You have become like jar--trying to argue by reframing an argument to favor your points. In fact, I think you have one scripture for the OT, Isaiah 45:7, and one scripture for the NT, Matthew 25.
ringo writes:
I have answered your points and I expect a response to my answers.
And I expect you to address the scriptures I quoted from Revelation and kindly explain why I'm wrong about a Beast who does not yet exist and a Jesus who eternally does.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by ringo, posted 09-18-2022 2:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 887 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 1:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 887 of 895 (898127)
09-19-2022 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by Phat
09-18-2022 4:47 PM


Re: Gishing It Out With Ringo
Phat writes:
Dont Gish me, either.
I didn't Gish you. I gave a direct response. That's the opposite of Gish.
Phat writes:
You claim God Himself said it, but when anything in the book supports your argument you focus on it.
The "but" in that sentence shouldn't be there.
Phat writes:
When I bring up the Book of Revelation and have a perfectly good counter-argument, you accuse me of Gishing it were true.
Because you can't use one book to negate another. If you're going to use any book of the Bible as a reference, you're stuck with the others too. Your Gish-gallop completely ignored what i said.
Phat writes:
I have said many many many times that God logically created the possibility of evil.
And I have explained many, many, many times why that is wrong: creating the possibility of evil is exactly the same as creating evil. If He digs a tiger trap in His front yard, He is responsible for the injuries it causes. If He turns children loose in a workshop full of power tools, He is responsible for any injuries they sustain. Stop ignoring the rebuttal and address it.
Phat writes:
If you disagree, explain to me how evil could manifest without an action by a human.
Been there, done that, got a closet full of T-shirts.
Of course an action by a human is necessary. A human can't fall into a tiger trap without a human being present. It's the tiger trap that doesn't need to be present. The evil One who dug the tiger trap is responsible.
Phat writes:
Am I not allowed to elaborate or speculate on what a book written by humans means?
No. You are not allowed to deny one part of the book that you don't like and then rely on another part of the book that you do like. You have to be honest.
Phat writes:
Jesus said there is none good but God. Was He lying?
He was weaseling. He asked why somebody called Him good and said that only God is good (Matthew 19:17). He also said, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) Those claims can not both be "true".
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
But Jesus DOESN"T represent personified good. If He is God and God creates evil, then He represents good AND evil.
That's not what the book says. That's what ringo concludes.
What else can you conclude? Give an argument, for once.
Phat writes:
Jesus and I have a give-and-take relationship. He commands. I question.
But He never "commands" you to do anything you don't want to do. "Soldier! We gotta take that hill! So if it isn't too much trouble, if you can work it into your schedule, would you mind going over there and shooting at the enemy? Pretty please?" That kind of "command" isn't too hard to take.
Phat writes:
If He ultimately sends me to hell, you will have won the argument.
Then I can't win the argument because He doesn't exist so He can't send you to hell.
Phat writes:
Note that the sheep and goats story has not yet happened. At this point, we don't know who the sheep are and who the goats are.
Well, it kinda has. The dead will be judged on what they have already done. You will be judged on what you have already done (or not done). You might be able to do enough good in the rest of your life to outweigh the bad you have done in the past (and the good that you have not done in the past). Your "salvation" (from God) depends on God's grace (whim).
Phat writes:
At this point, we don't know who the sheep are and who the goats are.
I just finished saying that. You contradict yourself.
And by the way, since we don't know who are goats and who are sheep, you can not claim that you are already "saved".
Phat writes:
If God were both good and evil, as your lame interpretation of His character suggests...
You have not demonstrated that my reading has any lameness. It's an exact, literal reading, You have to interpret it through a lot of hoops to get any other reading.
Phat writes:
He would have plainly said "I AM good and evil...."
He did.
He who creates evil is evil.
Phat writes:
In which case, humans are all let off the hook for being responsible for what they do, since it is all up to God anyway.
That makes no sense. Try again in English.
Phat writes:
You defend a book full of characters you doubt even exist.
Sure. Why not? I can defend the message without believing the characters existed. Look at Aesop's fables. The talking animals never existed but the morals of the stories still have value.
And I have more respect for the Bible fables than you do.
Phat writes:
And don't go trotting out your argument that Long John Silver or Bilbo Baggins don't exist and yet are themselves in books.
I WILL trot out the argument until you understand that it is true.
Phat writes:
It too is a lame argument.
SHOW that it is lame.
Phat writes:
You can't judge someone by a book that you think was written by humans.
And I suppose I can't fly to Paris on a plane that was designed by humans, built by humans and piloted by humans.
Seriously, do you think at all before you write nonsense like that? Do you read it after you wrote it to see if it has a germ of sense?
ALL books are written by humans. By your logic, all books are useless.
phat writes:
ringo writes:
What has that got to do with what we're talking about?
This started out with you saying, and I quote:
ringo writes:
Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.
It is you who are Gishing.
Funny! You gallop off in all directions accusing me of Gish-galloping instead of addressing what I said. That's more like YOU Gish-galloping (again).
Phat writes:
You have become like jar...
Thanks for the compliment. I have also become like God (Genesis 3:22).
Phat writes:
... trying to argue by reframing an argument to favor your points.
Well, forgive me for presenting my side of the argument. I'd argue your side but it doesn't make any sense.
Phat writes:
In fact, I think you have one scripture for the OT, Isaiah 45:7, and one scripture for the NT, Matthew 25.
I mentioned Genesis 3 just above. I mention it quite often but you never address it.
Phat writes:
And I expect you to address the scriptures I quoted from Revelation...
You can expect till the cows come home. I'll address it when/if you tie it into what we're discussing.
Phat writes:
... and kindly explain why I'm wrong about a Beast who does not yet exist and a Jesus who eternally does.
They're both just your wishful thinking. Your Jesus is entirely made up and has no connection to what little we know about a "historical Jesus". You're wrong to throw away the historical record, however thin, and make up your own alternative facts.
As for the Beast, you're wrong to assume that the Revelation has any basis in reality.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by Phat, posted 09-18-2022 4:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 888 of 895 (898838)
10-01-2022 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
10-20-2019 3:48 PM


Finding Honesty In Apologetics
ringo writes:
The nonsense about "which tree" is clearly dishonest. There is no confusion in the story about which tree God was talking about. He said that Adam and Eve had become like Him, "to know good and evil."
The bit about being, "condemned to death," is also dishonest. God said they would die on the same day, not be sentenced on the same day.
Everyone dies a bit when they practice evil. I'm surprised that Trump is not yet dead.
ringo writes:
All assumptions should be questioned.
And anyone brought before any judge should have been questioned already before being sentenced to death!
If God exists, humanity is being questioned to this day regarding their collective fate. We become the decisions we make, both individually, nationally, and globally.
PaulK writes:
Let me note that the woman does not know the properties of either tree. If she were originally thinking of the Tree of Life she would still be thinking of the Tree of Life and eat from that.
Perhaps the snake/serpent was a necessary competition to prevent God from having a monopoly. God may well have "created both good and evil, but it was actually for our own good. Note the distinction between
creating good and evil and/or life and death vs actually
BEING* good and evil.
I disagree with the assessment that God is complete rather than good. I also agree with the assessment that the serpent told a partial truth rather than the truth, the whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth.
Metaphorically, Kreeft suggests that God is misunderstood. Many Christians assume that
  • God exists
  • God is all-good.
  • God is all-powerful.
  • God is all-wise.
  • Evil exists.
    How can all of those statements be true at the same time?
    Kreeft agrees that it is illogical.
    The Case For Faith writes:
    (Peter Kreeft talking "I remember a liberal preacher who once tried to dissuade me from taking up with the fundamentalists. He said: There's a logical problem here--you can be intelligent, or you can be honest, or you can be a fundamentalist, or any two of the three, but not all three!"
    Kreeft says that the same dilemma exists in the five points mentioned above.
    Kreeft writes:
    It seems you have to drop one of those beliefs. If God is all-powerful, He can do anything. If God is all-good, He wants only good. If God is all-wise, He knows what is good. Thus, if all those beliefs are true--and most Christians believe they are--then the consequence is that no evil can exist. But evil does exist.
    As I and Kreeft have argued before, God merely created the possibility of evil. So who actualizes it? (perhaps Republicans )
    Are Kreeft and I being dishonest by speculating that God created the possibility of evil?

    Edited by Phat, : correcting punctuation errors


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by Phat, posted 10-20-2019 3:48 PM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 889 by ringo, posted 10-01-2022 12:36 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20492
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 889 of 895 (898860)
    10-01-2022 12:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 888 by Phat
    10-01-2022 8:24 AM


    Re: Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    Phat writes:
    Everyone dies a bit when they practice evil.
    You might be able to sell that as a bumper sticker but it's obviously false. The most evil people don't die sooner than the most good people.
    quote:
    Only the good die young -- Billy Joel
    Phat writes:
    I'm surprised that Trump is not yet dead.
    Which falsifies your bumper sticker.
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    All assumptions should be questioned.
    And anyone brought before any judge should have been questioned already before being sentenced to death!
    What does that have to do with what you quoted?
    Phat writes:
    Perhaps the snake/serpent was a necessary competition to prevent God from having a monopoly.
    You're saying again that your god is not omnipotent - i.e. he doesn't have a monopoly on power.
    Phat writes:
    God may well have "created both good and evil, but it was actually for our own good.
    Yeah, the neighbor kids fall into the tiger trap "for their own good."
    Phat writes:
    Note the distinction between
    creating good and evil and/or life and death vs actually
    BEING* good and evil.
    We have noted many, many, many, many, many, many, many times that they are exactly the same.
    Phat writes:
    I disagree with the assessment that God is complete rather than good.
    Nobody but you is saying anything about "completeness". God HIMSELF said He creates evil, so the idea that He is only good is a non-starter.
    Phat writes:
    I also agree with the assessment that the serpent told a partial truth rather than the truth, the whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth.
    What was partial about it? He said they wouldn't die the same day and they didn't.
    Phat writes:
    Kreeft suggests that God is misunderstood.
    You're bound to misunderstand Him if you deny His exact words.
    Phat writes:
    Kreeft agrees that it is illogical.
    Does he also agree that water is wet?
    Phat writes:
    As I and Kreeft have argued before, God merely created the possibility of evil.
    And you have lost that argument every time. Any court in the land is going to call your tiger trap an attractive nuisance and hold YOU responsible for creating it.
    Stop blaming the victims.
    Phat writes:
    Are Kreeft and I being dishonest by speculating that God created the possibility of evil?
    YES! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! You are being dishonest! See the dozens of times it has been explained to you! The one who creates the problem is responsible!

    "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
    What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
    It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
    Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
    -- Leningrad Cowboys

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 888 by Phat, posted 10-01-2022 8:24 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 890 by Phat, posted 10-02-2022 1:44 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 16627
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 890 of 895 (898892)
    10-02-2022 1:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 889 by ringo
    10-01-2022 12:36 PM


    Re: Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    quote:
    Only the good die young -- Billy Joel
    Not according to the Bible. Many of the Patriarchs lived many many many many years. Billy Joel needs his piano tuned up! The Patriarchs were as human as you or I, but they are remembered due to the good they spread through leadership.
    ringo writes:
    All assumptions should be questioned.
    Yes. (Note that only one yes is needed! )
    You're saying again that your god is not omnipotent - i.e. he doesn't have a monopoly on power.
    He chose to give up the monopoly, allowing the tempter(tester) to temper us and make us stronger. The Tiger Trap is merely a training dojo.
    ringo writes:
    Yeah, the neighbor kids fall into the tiger trap "for their own good."
    Kinda, in a way. The kid falls into the trap much as a Kung Fu student is tested (tempted) by cunning masters intent on making him stronger and wiser. Forget the terminology of "Tiger Trap." Think Training Dojo.
    And no court would deny parents the right to send their children out into the world..ie the school of hard knocks. It is the process that the Father used for his prodigal son.
    Phat writes:
    Note the distinction between
    creating good and evil and/or life and death vs actually
    BEING* good and evil.
    ringo writes:
    We have noted many, many, many, many, many, many, many times that they are exactly the same.
    If a landlord digs a pit in the back yard, the pit is in effect the trap...lure....dojo of the tempter and is not the landlord's responsibility. It is merely a training dojo on the path of life. Some students make it out alive, while others experience death. No court can command the teacher to quit testing the students. Any judge worth their salt would allow a training dojo in the backyard. Call it a tiger trap if you wish. And if it did trap a tiger, only a tiger could sue, and Tigers cant read. Would you help satan win his case or are you going to allow the metaphor to change from Tiger Trap to training Dojo?
    Phat writes:
    I disagree with the assessment that God is complete rather than good. You support this line of thought by claiming that "I create good and evil" is the exact same thing as I AM Good and evil. I also agree with the assessment that the serpent told a partial truth rather than the truth, the whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth.
    ringo writes:
    What was partial about it? He said they wouldn't die the same day and they didn't.
    He also told them they would be like gods and they ended up homeless and naked. The landlord kicked them out. Perhaps they were expected to grow up. Now I have challenged the accusation that it was a trap. It was training.
    ​You love to invoke appeals to popularity--
    quote:
    YES! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! You are being dishonest! See the dozens of times it has been explained to you!
    I dont care how many times you repeat the word "yes" or "many". Many are called yet few are chosen. [/quote]
    Phat writes:
    As I and Kreeft have argued before, God merely created the possibility of evil.
    ringo writes:
    Any court in the land is going to call your tiger trap an attractive nuisance and hold YOU responsible for creating it.
    I would object and say that it was *you* who mentioned tiger traps. Perhaps it is you who is the attractive nuisance. Comb your har and straighten up. Jesus is coming back soon. Look busy!
    Stop blaming the victims.
    Stop defending them in court. Allow the victims to speak.
    ringo writes:
    See the dozens of times it has been explained to you! The one who creates the problem is responsible!
    You are simply trying to frame the argument, invoking an appeal to popularity and thinking you know more than God err I mean Christians.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 889 by ringo, posted 10-01-2022 12:36 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 891 by ringo, posted 10-02-2022 3:01 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 892 by Theodoric, posted 10-02-2022 3:33 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20492
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 891 of 895 (898894)
    10-02-2022 3:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 890 by Phat
    10-02-2022 1:44 PM


    Re: Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    Only the good die young -- Billy Joel
    ​Not according to the Bible. Many of the Patriarchs lived many many many many years.
    But of course that isn't true.
    Phat writes:
    The Patriarchs were as human as you or I, but they are remembered due to the good they spread through leadership.
    Like Abraham, who was unfaithful to his wife and tried to kill his son? Like Isaac, who cheated his brother out of his inheritance? Like Jacob, who was unfaithful to his wife? IF the patriarchs lived as long as the Bible claims (they didn't), they just confirm the idea that the bad live longer.
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    All assumptions should be questioned.
    Yes. (Note that only one yes is needed!)
    No, with you there can not be enough repetition. You seem to ignore everything I say the first few dozen times.
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    You're saying again that your god is not omnipotent - i.e. he doesn't have a monopoly on power.
    He chose to give up the monopoly....
    You don't need to make up excuses. All you need to do is acknowledge that your god is not omnipotent.
    Phat writes:
    The Tiger Trap is merely a training dojo.
    The tiger trap is an attractive nuisance. It's ILLEGAL by human law. It's EVIL.
    Your "training dojo" is, again, like turning children loose in a workshop full of power tools. They might learn something useful but they are also likely to learn which tools can cut off your fingers.
    That kind of "training" is EVIL.
    Phat writes:
    The kid falls into the trap much as a Kung Fu student is tested (tempted) by cunning masters intent on making him stronger and wiser.
    The tiger trap has sharpened bamboo punji sticks at the bottom. What does the kid "learn" from being impaled on them?
    Phat writes:
    Forget the terminology of "Tiger Trap."
    No. YOU remember it.
    God did tell Adam and Eve that they would DIE if they disobeyed. That is no "training dojo".
    Phat writes:
    And no court would deny parents the right to send their children out into the world.
    They certainly would deny parents the right to send their children to certain death.
    Phat writes:
    It is the process that the Father used for his prodigal son.
    The father of the prodigal son had no choice. His son was going with or without permission. He didn't "send" his son.
    The Prodigal Son story is what shoots down your idea of exclusivity. It says that the Father favors the rebellious son. It's in parallel with the story of the lost sheep and the story of the lost coin (Luke 15). It's about the Father's attitude. It is not about testing.
    Phat writes:
    If a landlord digs a pit in the back yard, the pit is in effect the trap...lure....dojo of the tempter and is not the landlord's responsibility.
    If somebody falls in, it is certainly the landlord's responsibility.
    Phat writes:
    It is merely a training dojo on the path of life.
    Forget that you ever heard of a "training dojo". Shooting at children with live ammunition is not "training".
    Phat writes:
    Some students make it out alive, while others experience death.
    And you don't see where your "training" analogy breaks down? Show me a school that kills its students.
    Phat writes:
    No court can command the teacher to quit testing the students.
    It can command him to stop killing them.
    Phat writes:
    Any judge worth their salt would allow a training dojo in the backyard.
    No judge worth his salt would allow you to kill your children, even if you call it "training".
    Phat writes:
    Call it a tiger trap if you wish. And if it did trap a tiger, only a tiger could sue, and Tigers cant read.
    You've never heard of mistreatment of animals?
    Phat writes:
    He also told them they would be like gods and they ended up homeless and naked.
    He said that they WERE like gods. You keep calling Him a liar.
    They HAD become like gods by disobeying Him. Of course, you don't need to obey your equals.
    Phat writes:
    The landlord kicked them out.
    He kicked them out BECAUSE they had become too much like Him. He was afraid.
    Phat writes:
    Perhaps they were expected to grow up.
    They HAD grown up. They HAD become like gods.
    Phat writes:
    Now I have challenged the accusation that it was a trap.
    Not much you haven't. You've tried to make excuses for killing students.
    Phat writes:
    You love to invoke appeals to popularity--
    When have I ever done that? And what does it have to do with this discussion?
    Phat writes:
    I dont care how many times you repeat the word "yes" or "many".
    I know you don't. That's why I repeat it, to make it clear to anybody else reading it that you don't pay attention.
    Phat writes:
    Many are called yet few are chosen.
    What do you think that means? And what does it have to do with this discussion?
    Phat writes:
    I would object and say that it was *you* who mentioned tiger traps.
    Digging a tiger trap is creating the potential for evil. And it IS evil. Sand dunes on Mars understood that. Why can't you?
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    Stop blaming the victims.
    Stop defending them in court. Allow the victims to speak.
    Does that sound rational tyo you?
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    See the dozens of times it has been explained to you! The one who creates the problem is responsible!
    You are simply trying to frame the argument, invoking an appeal to popularity...
    *Ahem* That is NOT an appeal to popularity.
    Phat writes:
    ... and thinking you know more than God err I mean Christians.
    I think it's pretty clear that I know more than YOU.

    "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
    What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
    It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
    Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
    -- Leningrad Cowboys

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 890 by Phat, posted 10-02-2022 1:44 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 7848
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 892 of 895 (898896)
    10-02-2022 3:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 890 by Phat
    10-02-2022 1:44 PM


    Re: Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    You are a vile human being. You are willing to countenance any evil in order to support your belief in a god.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 890 by Phat, posted 10-02-2022 1:44 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 893 by Phat, posted 10-02-2022 3:49 PM Theodoric has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 16627
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 893 of 895 (898897)
    10-02-2022 3:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 892 by Theodoric
    10-02-2022 3:33 PM


    Re: Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    Will you stop? You and I never even talk or have a discussion about anything here at EvC. All I get from you is armchair criticism. Whether you care about the names on the screen apart from whether or not they agree with your politics I do not know. But to label someone as a vile human being without knowing anything about them is unwarranted. I suppose i could tell you to go crawl back under your rock, but I have more respect for you than that. I mean really, Theo.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 892 by Theodoric, posted 10-02-2022 3:33 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 894 by Theodoric, posted 10-02-2022 5:10 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 895 by ringo, posted 10-03-2022 11:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 7848
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 894 of 895 (898899)
    10-02-2022 5:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 893 by Phat
    10-02-2022 3:49 PM


    Re: Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    You are saying the horrendous death of children is part of your god's plan. To think that and approve of that is inhuman, inhumane, and vile. I am glad you take offense.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 893 by Phat, posted 10-02-2022 3:49 PM Phat has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20492
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 895 of 895 (898911)
    10-03-2022 11:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 893 by Phat
    10-02-2022 3:49 PM


    Re: Finding Honesty In Apologetics
    Phat writes:
    But to label someone as a vile human being without knowing anything about them is unwarranted.
    We know you by what you post and what you post is vile. Maybe it's only your god that's vile but you keep defending him.
    By now you should have realized how difficult it is to make up a fictional character that's "perfect". There's a reason why fictional characters are almost always flawed, no matter how heroic they are. Even Superman has his kryptonite.
    Abraham Lincoln (supposedly) said, "No man has a good enough memory to be a successful liar." Similarly, no man has a good enough memory to create a consistently perfect fictional character. Note how you're constantly tripping over your own feet when something you say authoritatively is contradicted by something else you said authoritatively.
    Unfortunately for you, the Internet has a long and fairly accurate memory.

    "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
    What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
    It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
    Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
    -- Leningrad Cowboys

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 893 by Phat, posted 10-02-2022 3:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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