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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2059 of 2073 (894686)
05-26-2022 4:58 PM


*** Bump for eWolf ***
Message 2042
DWise1 writes:
I have not forgotten you. I ended in the hospital and will be back with you as soon as possible. Merry Belated Christmas!
Of course the first conclusion we all jumped to as to what you were in the hospital for ... but that's neither here nor there nor even anywhere near the topic. The main thing is that you were able to get through it and out of the hospital.
I understand you to be of retirement age as I am. My brother-in-law is a decade older than I am. He got rather sick for about a week towards the end of December and is only now recovering from it. I shared with him my own experience that the main problem with getting old is that if we get sick or injured it takes so long to heal, if ever. So work on getting well.
 
Along those lines, I would suggest that you do not waste your time or energy continuing your efforts to discredit yourself and your own religion with mindless sermonizing. We've all heard that stuff before and, indeed, some of us could write far better sales pitches for that pig-in-a-poke (AKA "bill of goods"). Give that a rest since it would be a complete waste of your energy which is currently in short supply.
Instead, concentrate on discussing the topic. You have left so many questions unanswered that you still need to address -- indeed, your switch to blatant preaching could only be interpreted as a failed attempt to avoid those questions or, as I pondered in my Message 2033, feeding your own persecution fantasy by deliberately provoking negative reactions in order to return to your church to complain how much we "hate God" (whereas the truth is that we just hate it when you [pl] pull that stupid crap). Please just turn your attention to that discussion.
My most primary question for you, which I have had to repeat and which you have never even tried to answer, was last repeated in my Message 2032:
DWise1 writes:
And you still have not answer the most basic questions your implied offer to; from my Message 2017:
DWise1 writes:
EWolf writes:
... unless any of you may have any more unanswered questions.
Yes, you did still never answer my question. Though I'm sure that it's entirely beyond your ability to answer, since you don't know the answer yourself:
DWise1 writes:
Dunnage writes:
Yes, the student should be made aware of and familiarized with the widespread presence of the evolutionary mindset.
Just what the hell are you talking about? What "evolutionary mindset"? No such thing exists any more than there's an "electronics mindset" or a "muffin method mindset."
All you're doing is repeating a fake bogeyman that was created to scare you. If you truly believe that there is such a thing, then you must present it and your evidence for it, and then be ready to discuss it.
You keep blathering about this "evolution mindset", but you never say what it is supposed to be. Do you even know yourself? I doubt that very much. You are obviously just vomiting the BS lies that creationists keep feeding you, and then you return to eat your own vomit as a dog does.
Which reminds me, you really should try to get around to reading the Bible.
So then, ¡yet again!, just exactly what is this "evolution mindset" you keep blathering about? What is it based on?
The rest of Message 2017 brings up several other questions raised by your bald assertions, a few of which I shall list here:
  1. There is no inherent conflict between Divine Creation and evolution (nor any other science for that matter); the only conflicts that arise are due to foolish and contrary-to-fact ideas about Creation and even more foolish and contrary-to-reality ideas about evolution.
    All your assertions indicate that you believe that there is some kind of inherent conflict between Creation and evolution. Why would you believe such a thing? What are the reasons for your belief in that? What are the actual points of conflict that you perceive and why do you see them as conflicts? Provide some kind of reasoned argument, not more baseless bald assertions, please.
  2. What do you think evolution is? Or how it works? Until we know the answers to those questions, none of your conclusions about evolution can make any sense.
    Seriously, what are your unstated assumptions about evolution. For decades, we keep hearing the same nonsensical assertions about and "disproofs" of "evolution" but never ever any basis for those assertions. So yet again, what are you talking about?
  3. That brings us back around to that primary question of just exactly what is this "evolution mindset" you keep blathering about and what is it based on? That is yet another bald assertion that is nothing but nonsense since we do not know what your assumptions are and hence we cannot know what you are talking about.
  4. What do you think the consequences are of evolution being true? Why do you think that? (again, a reasoned argument, please, not just more baseless bald assertions) Of course, in order to answer that we would need to establish what you think evolution is.
  5. I don't think we were able to establish whether you are a young-earth creationist. If you are, then what would the consequences be of the earth actually being billons of years old? Again, why do you think those must be the consequences?
  6. Why do you advocate that the government should be compelled to impose indoctrination in some arbitrarily chosen religion on school children in direct violation of their parents' right to choose the religious tradition to raise their children in?
    If you wish to falsely claim that you have done no such thing, then support your false claim! Refer to my Message 2015 again for the points about education that you would need to address.
  7. Bonus Question: Since all theology is created by Man, if error is found in one's theology, then what does that mean about God? And what should one do about that error which has been found?
These are but a few questions that need to be addressed.
They are very reasonable basic questions which promote discussion (whereas bald assertions only serve to shut down discussin). They are also basic questions that I have never ever seen a creationist attempt to answer in the four decades I have been studying "creation science." Indeed, creationists instead do everything they can to avoid those questions.
My expectations of you are extremely low. Please surprise me.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2060 by dwise1, posted 09-16-2022 8:16 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2060 of 2073 (897961)
09-16-2022 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2059 by dwise1
05-26-2022 4:58 PM


Re: *** Bump for eWolf ***
Message 2042
​
DWise1 writes:
I have not forgotten you. I ended in the hospital and will be back with you as soon as possible. Merry Belated Christmas!
Of course the first conclusion we all jumped to as to what you were in the hospital for ... but that's neither here nor there nor even anywhere near the topic. The main thing is that you were able to get through it and out of the hospital.
​
I understand you to be of retirement age as I am. My brother-in-law is a decade older than I am. He got rather sick for about a week towards the end of December and is only now recovering from it. I shared with him my own experience that the main problem with getting old is that if we get sick or injured it takes so long to heal, if ever. So work on getting well.
​
 
Along those lines, I would suggest that you do not waste your time or energy continuing your efforts to discredit yourself and your own religion with mindless sermonizing. We've all heard that stuff before and, indeed, some of us could write far better sales pitches for that pig-in-a-poke (AKA "bill of goods"). Give that a rest since it would be a complete waste of your energy which is currently in short supply.
​
Instead, concentrate on discussing the topic. You have left so many questions unanswered that you still need to address -- indeed, your switch to blatant preaching could only be interpreted as a failed attempt to avoid those questions or, as I pondered in my Message 2033, feeding your own persecution fantasy by deliberately provoking negative reactions in order to return to your church to complain how much we "hate God" (whereas the truth is that we just hate it when you [pl] pull that stupid crap). Please just turn your attention to that discussion.
​
My most primary question for you, which I have had to repeat and which you have never even tried to answer, was last repeated in my Message 2032:
​
DWise1 writes:
And you still have not answer the most basic questions your implied offer to; from my Message 2017:
​
DWise1 writes:
EWolf writes:
... unless any of you may have any more unanswered questions.
Yes, you did still never answer my question. Though I'm sure that it's entirely beyond your ability to answer, since you don't know the answer yourself:
​
DWise1 writes:
Dunnage writes:
Yes, the student should be made aware of and familiarized with the widespread presence of the evolutionary mindset.
​
Just what the hell are you talking about? What "evolutionary mindset"? No such thing exists any more than there's an "electronics mindset" or a "muffin method mindset."
​
All you're doing is repeating a fake bogeyman that was created to scare you. If you truly believe that there is such a thing, then you must present it and your evidence for it, and then be ready to discuss it.
​
You keep blathering about this "evolution mindset", but you never say what it is supposed to be. Do you even know yourself? I doubt that very much. You are obviously just vomiting the BS lies that creationists keep feeding you, and then you return to eat your own vomit as a dog does.
​
Which reminds me, you really should try to get around to reading the Bible.
​
So then, ¡yet again!, just exactly what is this "evolution mindset" you keep blathering about? What is it based on?
​
The rest of Message 2017 brings up several other questions raised by your bald assertions, a few of which I shall list here:
  1. There is no inherent conflict between Divine Creation and evolution (nor any other science for that matter); the only conflicts that arise are due to foolish and contrary-to-fact ideas about Creation and even more foolish and contrary-to-reality ideas about evolution.
    ​
    All your assertions indicate that you believe that there is some kind of inherent conflict between Creation and evolution. Why would you believe such a thing? What are the reasons for your belief in that? What are the actual points of conflict that you perceive and why do you see them as conflicts? Provide some kind of reasoned argument, not more baseless bald assertions, please.
    ​
  2. What do you think evolution is? Or how it works? Until we know the answers to those questions, none of your conclusions about evolution can make any sense.
    ​
    Seriously, what are your unstated assumptions about evolution. For decades, we keep hearing the same nonsensical assertions about and "disproofs" of "evolution" but never ever any basis for those assertions. So yet again, what are you talking about?
    ​
  3. That brings us back around to that primary question of just exactly what is this "evolution mindset" you keep blathering about and what is it based on? That is yet another bald assertion that is nothing but nonsense since we do not know what your assumptions are and hence we cannot know what you are talking about.
    ​
  4. What do you think the consequences are of evolution being true? Why do you think that? (again, a reasoned argument, please, not just more baseless bald assertions) Of course, in order to answer that we would need to establish what you think evolution is.
    ​
  5. I don't think we were able to establish whether you are a young-earth creationist. If you are, then what would the consequences be of the earth actually being billons of years old? Again, why do you think those must be the consequences?
    ​
  6. Why do you advocate that the government should be compelled to impose indoctrination in some arbitrarily chosen religion on school children in direct violation of their parents' right to choose the religious tradition to raise their children in?
    ​
    If you wish to falsely claim that you have done no such thing, then support your false claim! Refer to my Message 2015 again for the points about education that you would need to address.
    ​
  7. Bonus Question: Since all theology is created by Man, if error is found in one's theology, then what does that mean about God? And what should one do about that error which has been found?
​
These are but a few questions that need to be addressed.
​
They are very reasonable basic questions which promote discussion (whereas bald assertions only serve to shut down discussin). They are also basic questions that I have never ever seen a creationist attempt to answer in the four decades I have been studying "creation science." Indeed, creationists instead do everything they can to avoid those questions.
​
My expectations of you are extremely low. Please surprise me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2059 by dwise1, posted 05-26-2022 4:58 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 2064 of 2073 (898447)
09-24-2022 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2061 by EWolf
09-23-2022 10:20 PM


Jessica H. Christ! Don't you understand anything?
So much of your BS to respond to. So it will take multiple replies.
Only one of the diametrically opposed Creation and evolutionary doctrines may be taught as fact. Although Biblical Creation truth is normally taught in church, isn’t it the responsibility of our educational institutions to support it? Truth supports truth.
  1. Creation and evolution are not opposed to each other, especially not "diametrically." Evolution is the net cumulative results of life quite naturally doing what life quite naturally does. Any actual believer in Creation (as opposed to the fake creationists such as you obviously are) would understand and believe that the world is as we find it because that is how the Creator had Created it. On the contrary, you fake creationists teach and insist on a false theology which proclaims that if the world is indeed as we find it, then that disproves God. Complete and utter insanity!
    If you actually and sincerely believe that Creation and evolution are "diametrically opposed", then present and defend your case for that belief! We have repeated requested/demanded that you do so, yet you persistently refuse to respond. What are you afraid of?
    Part of that presentation, defense, and discussion would be for you to finally tell us what the hell you mean by "evolutionary doctrine." My four-decade study of "creation science" and more than three decades of encounters with creationists has demonstrated conclusively that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. They don't know what evolution is, but rather they constantly attack some kind of strawman idiocy that has nothing whatsoever to do with evolution, and which they all in their immense dishonesty refuse to ever describe so that we can finally figure out what the f**k they are talking about!.
    Just as you dishonestly refuse. Please break that vicious cycle of creationist lies and deception. Truth (which is personified by Jesus) cannot be served by lies and deception. There is only one Christian deity that I can think of who is served by lies and deception.
  2. The responsibility of our educational institutions is to educate. Part of your problem is that you don't understand what education is. You think that it is indoctrination because that is what your churches do:
    1. Indoctrination is telling the subjects what they are required to believe and then compelling them to believe it. No understanding of the subject matter is required, just a statement of faith that you believe it.
    2. Education is learning what things are without compelling them to believe in those things. The goal of education is understanding.
      Examples (that even you should be able to understand:
      • In school, we were taught Greek and Roman mythology. We learned the stories of those gods. Do you insist that those are attempts to turn the students into pagans? Or is the purpose for them to know about ancient cultures so that they can understand the stories, poems, and artworks that can only be understood if you know the story behind them?
        BTW, that is also a justification for teaching about Judaism and Christianity and Bible stories. So that they can understand references to those stories in literature and art. Not to compel them to believe in those stories -- for that they would need to go to a religious authority -- but so that they could know about such things.
      • Learning in geography and world history classes about all other religions. Again, not in order to convert them to those religions (that is the purpose of your indoctrination), but rather so that they can learn what those religions are and what they teach, along with their histories and social structures. That is especially important for understanding how to work with other cultures:
        Case in point:
        Senior Chief Petty Officer (SCPO), ret., Malcolm Nance, currently serving in combat at the age of 61 in the International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine (I am also a CPO, ret, and would freely give my right anchor to have served in the same CPO Mess as him), was a Cryptology tech who got involved in intelligence work leading to work in national security, counterterrorism intelligence, Islamic extremism, and SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape, training for downed pilots and similar personnel to evade and survive capture -- "Return with Honor"). He specialized in Islamic and Russian threats, so he is fluent in both Arabic and Russian (OK, being a polyglot myself, I know that there are several levels of fluency; being able to function in a language and discuss complicated subjects in that language is one thing, but being able to pass as a native takes a lot more work -- at a local German cinema when I was in college, other Germans hearing me assumed that I must be Swiss).
        Operating in the field in Iraq, being black he was able to go places and do things that the real linguistical experts, tall blond Mormons, could not go nor do. Send one of those Mormons or a sufficiently trained Caucasian agent in for human intel and they'd get nothing. But he could go to a local imam, get to know him, pray together (yes, Islamic), and gain his trust enough to gather the needed intel.
        Someone like you, no matter how fluent in Arabic, could have ever accomplished that with your Christian utter arrogance and ignorance of your subjects' culture and religion. That knowledge is gained from education, not from your stupid indoctrination.
        Further notes:
        • My very first encounter with Malcolm Nance was on the Dean Obeidallah Show where he was talking about the organization of al-Qaeda. Military veterans (35 years of service) have a nose for bullshit, which explains an earlier YouTube series of "stolen valor" videos, videos exposing idiots trying to use the uniform to pose as veterans -- it doesn't take a Marine to spot those pukes. I listened to Malcolm Nance on the radio and I could tell that this guy really knew his shit! -- he dead-on knew what he was talking about on every point (not like the GQP pukes appearing on FOX News blathering nothing but nonsense and dezinformatsiya).
        • His descriptions of counterintelligence matched my own approx. 40 years of counterintelligence training (albeit mostly as annual general military training (GMT) designed to make us aware of the threats and their nature, plus many case studies like the Walkers ("The John Walker Spy Ring and The U.S. Navy’s Biggest Betrayal"), recruited by the father, John Walker).
          Everything that Trump did throughout his administration kept sounding alert klaxons for everybody with any kind of counterintelligence training. But he controlled the government so nobody could do anything.
          Wow, Trump has a lot of feathers in his cap now, doesn't he? Nixon was the crookedest President, but Trump took that title from him. "Dubya" Bush was the dumbest until Trump (Rick Perry followed Dubya as Texas Governor, so Texans would refer to Dubya as "the smart one"). Harding's administration was the most corrupt in history, until Trump's. Trump has rehabilitated so many presidents' tainted reputations. And now his extremely gross and flagrant stealing and mishandling of America's secrets far exceeds the treasonous actions of the Walker family spy ring ... and of Benedict Arnold, historically the worst American traitor ever. Wow!
        • Here's a good YouTube video of his interview with "Angry Americans" ("If you're not angry, then you're not paying attention."). Two experienced military veterans sitting there trading war stories and making observations from their military perspectives, but with Nance contributing the most (from 16 Sep 2019):
        • Have you ever seen the George Clooney movie, Three Kings (1999)? Ice Cube plays Staff Sergeant Chief Elgin. Chief???? What the f*** is that s*** about? US Army has no f***ing chiefs except for Chief Warrant Officers, which this Staff Sergeant isn't! It's nothing but f***ing stolen valor all over again! And we veterans will not stand for it! Do not ever disrespect the uniform! Eg, those idiotic Rambo-style posters of Trump, the ultimate poser! BTW, I heard a story by a SEAL and his brother, a Ranger, seeing a poster on a shop of "Rambo-Trump" disrespecting both uniforms so they stop in, buy one of those posters and torn it up in front of the shop owner explaining to him the gross disrespect that poster was to the uniform. The shop owner placed a sidearm on the counter as a threat. Fuck you, Republican pseudo-patriots! I mean, seriously dudes! Trump wasn't even man enough to brave a little light rain to go to Normandy! What a wimp!
          Anyway, watch this video of Malcolm Nance speaking at the USC Price Safe Communities Institute on 10 Aug 2018:
          Advance to timemark 19:15, where he talks about it. Hollywood got the ranks entirely wrong. Ice Cube's role was supposed to be based on then-Chief Malcolm Nance, this black Navy guy who apparently everybody was talking about because he was all over the place in Iraq. The original treatment was supposed to include a Navy Chief, but then they wanted everybody to be Army so they screwed it all up. The f***ing idiots!
      • From 1976 to 1982, I was a Cold Warrior serving on a Strategic Air Command (SAC) base in the Northern Tier of our nuclear defense. I served as a digital communications technician a Communications Command tenet organization supporting the mission.
        Towards the end of my active duty, I attended Leadership School, the first level of the USAF NCO Academy. Part of our classroom instruction was ... (wait for it) ... (wait for it) ... (wait for it) ... (wait for it) ... (wait for it) ... Marxism and Communism.
        According to your own "educational model" of indoctrination, that could mean nothing else but the US Air Force wanting to indoctrinate us in Marxism and Communism in order to turn us all into Commies!!!!!!
        BULLSHIT!! You idiot!
        The purpose was for us to know and understand our enemy so that we could more effectively fight against him. You f***ing IDIOT!
    3. And in addition I responded to your Message 1961 in this very same topic with my own Message 2015, to which you, coward (or are you hiding something more sinister?), never replied):
      Should religion be taught with evolution in schools?

      This issue may be better addressed by a discussion on whether religion should be encouraged in education or not.

      EWolf's ideas about education seem to consist of nothing but dunnage (a play on what I recall his original "nom de forum" to have been). If he were to have any clue, then he would know better to advance his "arguments."

      In Message 2004 I quoted briefly from the State Board of Education Policy on the Teaching of Natural Sciences found in the 1990 Science Framework for California Public Schools Kindergarten Through Grade Twelve; that policy statement superceded the 1972 Anti-Dogmatism Policy. In Message 2004 my citation (EWolf: do please note that word choice which is totally unrelated to the word, "sight"):

      quote:
      "Compelling belief is inconsistent with the goal of education; the goal is to encourage understanding."
      and later in the same document:

      "We repeat here the fundamental conviction of this framework: Education does not compel belief; it seeks to encourage understanding. Nothing in science, or in any other field, should be taught dogmatically. But teaching about something does not constitute advancing it as truth. In science, there is no truth. There is only knowledge that tests itself and builds on itself constantly. This is the message that students should take away with them."


      Eleven years ago in this very same topic, in Message 133 I quoted that policy in full and quote it in full again here for EWolf's edification:

      quote:
      The domain of the natural sciences is the natural world. Science is limited by its tools — observable facts and testable hypotheses.

      Discussions of any scientific fact, hypothesis, or theory related to the origins of the universe, the earth, and life (the how) are appropriate to the science curriculum. Discussions of divine creation, ultimate purposes, or ultimate causes (the why) are appropriate to the history-social science and English-language arts curricula.

      Nothing in science or in any other field of knowledge shall be taught dogmatically. Dogma is a system of beliefs that is not subject to scientific test and refutation. Compelling belief is inconsistent with the goal of education; the goal is to encourage understanding.

      To be fully informed citizens, students do not have to accept everything that is taught in the natural science curriculum, but they do have to understand the major strands of scientific thought, including its methods, facts, hypotheses, theories, and laws.

      A scientific fact is an understanding based on confirmable observations and is subject to test and rejection. A scientific hypothesis is an attempt to frame a question as a testable proposition. A scientific theory is a logical construct based on facts and hypotheses that organizes and explains a range of natural phenomena. Scientific theories are constantly subject to testing, modification, and refutation as new evidence and new ideas emerge. Because scientific theories have predictive capabilities, they essentially guide further investigations.

      From time to time natural science teachers are asked to teach content that does not meet the criteria of scientific fact, hypothesis, and theory as these terms are used in natural science and as defined in this policy. As a matter of principle, science teachers are professionally bound to limit their teaching to science and should resist pressure to do otherwise. Administrators should support teachers in this regard.

      Philosophical and religious beliefs are based, at least in part, on faith and are not subject to scientific test and refutation. Such beliefs should be discussed in the social science and language arts curricula. The Board's position has been stated in the History-Social Science Framework (adopted by the Board).1 If a student should raise a question in a natural science class that the teacher determines is outside the domain of science, the teacher should treat the question with respect. The teacher should explain why the question is outside the domain of natural science and encourage the student to discuss the question further with his or her family and clergy.

      Neither the California nor the United States Constitution requires that time be given in the curriculum to religious views in order to accommodate those who object to certain material presented or activities conducted in science classes. It may be unconstitutional to grant time for that reason.

      Nothing in the California Education Code allows students (or their parents or guardians) to excuse their class attendance on the basis of disagreements with the curriculum, except as specified for (1) any class in which human reproductive organs and their functions and process are described, illustrated, or discussed; and (2) an education project involving the harmful or destructive use of animals. (See California Education Code Section 51550 and Chapter 2.3 of Part 19 commencing with Section 32255.) However, the United States Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion, and local governing boards and school districts are encouraged to develop statements, such as this one on policy, that recognize and respect that freedom in the teaching of science. Ultimately, students should be made aware of the difference between understanding, which is the goal of education, and subscribing to ideas.


      In that same earlier message, I noted:

      DWise1 writes:
      "Compelling belief is inconsistent with the goal of education; the goal is to encourage understanding."

      Students need to have some degree of understanding of science and scientific concepts. Including "creation science" detracts from that goal.

      Students are not to be compelled to believe in the subject matter, but rather to understand it. For example, in 1982 the US Air Force instructed me in Communism. Obviously, the intent was not to compel me to embrace Communism, but rather for me to know more about our opposing superpower (that was during the Cold War). "Creation science" "public school" materials explicitly and specifically seek to compel belief.

      Including "creation science" in the science classroom would obviously be contrary to science education.

      OTOH, it is very important for creationists that their children do learn everything they can about evolution. If they wish their children to be able to fight against evolution, then keep them ignorant of their avowed enemy and being grossly misinformed about that enemy will only guarantee their defeat. And the defection of their children to their enemy.

       

      We normals understand education's purpose to be for the student to gain knowledge and understanding of facts and ideas whether the student actually believes in those ideas or not. Hence we can study any idea without having to subscribe to that idea ourselves (eg, Communism, Nazism, fascism, Animism (spirits inhabiting nature), feudalism, all forms of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, flat earthism, polygenesis (the idea that human races each have seperate origins (eg, God created the "sub-human races" separately from Adam) and hence forms the basis for Nazi race theory and American racism), organized criminal practices). And of course practice follows purpose, so students are presented with factual presentations and analysis but are never coerced nor forced to subscribe to the ideas. One of the bottom lines is that the student is expected and encouraged to think.

      It appears that EWolf's inability to understand any part of education as delineated above is because creationists' "Christian education" has almost entirely different purpose and goals and hence, since practice follows purpose, entirely different methods. It should be noted that "Christian education's" purposes and methods are very much the same as practiced by most all other religions, cults, and ideologies (eg, Nazism, Communism, GQP-ism). Their bottom line is to dictate what the student must believe and to compel that belief; IOW, the student is forbidden to think and instead is forced to comply.

      The operative word for EWolf's "Christian education" is indoctrination. And because he and other creationists and fundies only think of education in terms of indoctrination, they accuse us of indoctrination too even though nothing could be further from the truth. In support of this, please consider the "public school edition" "equal time" "creation science" classroom materials, which always end by urging the students to decide between their "unnamed Creator" and "atheistic evolution" all while giving a very distorted picture of evolution and a glowing (and fact-free) picture of creation. IOW, they're using the public schools (a government agency) to proselytize.

      And to make matters even more muddled, they appear to have an inherent belief that in order to learn something you are required to believe in it. Yeah, I know, weird! That became very apparent in one on-line exchange I had with a creationist. Since practically every creationist I've encountered has demonstrated almost complete ignorance of evolution coupled with horrific misconceptions, I have very frequently (almost constantly) urged creationist to please, please, please learn something about evolution if for no other reason than to concentrate their anti-evolution efforts on evolution itself instead of wasting them on complete nonsense. This one creationist's response was absolute horror as he adamantly refused to learn anything about evolution: "Studying evolution would mean I would have to believe in it!" Complete and utter idiocy! And that is the kind of idiotic nonsense we have to deal with when dealing with creationists.

       
      So as for EWolf's two specific questions/"points":

      Should religion be taught with evolution in schools?

      Why? Evolution is taught in science class. Teaching religion in science class is completely inappropriate. And indeed, EWolf's rhetoric repeated refers to the religion that he would want to have taught as "Biblical truth." Hence, he wants to have the Bible itself, not just the deliberately crafted "Hide the Bible" deception which is "creation science", taught in science class.

      Of course not! What possible pedogogic purpose could that possibly ever have?

      The closest valid reason for teaching about non-science subject matter in a science class would be to show past ideas that have since been proven wrong in order to provide some history and historical context (eg, spontaneous generation, the caloric theory and phlogiston to explain heat transfer, geocentrism, flat-earthism (which wasn't an actual thing what with Eratosthenes having measured the earth's circumference circa 240 BCE)). But of course EWolf would then complain bitterly if we were to include the Bible in such a manner in the science classroom.

      The other reason for mentioning popular pseudo-scientific ideas would be to expose their falsehoods (which "creation science" consists entirely of). Of course, this would have the effect of exposing creationism as the complete fraud that it is, something which I doubt EWolf would actually want. And despite all the creationist talk of wanting "equal time" and "balanced treatment" and "our reasons for opposing evolution are purely scientific, nothing religious about it" (that being the central lie and deception of "creation science", which was deliberately crafted to deceive the courts and the public). And yet when an actual honestly run "Two Model" class was held, the creationists hated it and forced it to be shut down.

      Somewhere around 1980, two professors at San Diego State University, Roger Awbrey and Bill Thwaites, started a "Two Model" class. At that time, the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), then the cutting edge state-of-the-art YEC organization (they had literally created "creation science" and Flood Geology and were the foremost publishers of creationist "educational" materials) was still headquartered in nearby El Cajon and then in Santee, plus they had on their staff the leading professional creationists. Basically, whenever you were talking about creationism and creationist claims, you were talking about what the ICR said. Literally, guest creationists gave half the lectures and Awbrey & Thwaites gave the other half. Now, at many creationist debates it's traditional to have the audience vote on who won -- of course, since the audience would be packed with church groups along with other factors (eg, the creationist being far more experienced in these events and more polished through practice) the creationist would usually win the vote. Similarly, at the end of the semester the students would also vote for which side made the better case. Typically, science would win since now the students could actually examine and test the creationist claims. The campus Christian clubs kept protesting this course and I believe I was told also hold demonstrations against it. Finally, Admin grew tired of the ruckus and cancelled the course.

      So when they finally get a an actual two-model course in a school, the creationists oppose it. Now of course, in their presentations Awbrey & Thwaites would present the actual science that the creationists were misrepresenting, which means that they were responding to the creationists' claims -- I assume that the creationist was allowed to be present for those classes. In their presentations Awbrey & Thwaites could present what the creationists' own scientific sources (which the creationists had misquoted or misrepresented; AKA "quote-mined") actually said, a tactic that had been used very effectively against ICR VP Duane Gish in debate (overhead projection with two columns, on the left is what Gish said a source said and on the right is what it actually said). Also in one class Gish had repeated their false claim about the bombadier beetle (AKA "Bomby") that the two chemicals in its chemical defense would spontaneously explode when mixed, so Awbrey & Thwaites took beakers containing those two chemicals and mixed them together right in front of Gish in class (as well as in glass!) and no explosion. Gish mumbled something about somebody else having screwed up and misinformed him, but for several years afterwards Gish continued to use that same claim which he had admited in public to be false.

      Also, regarding those debate votes there is a story. In a report on a debate in Redlands, Calif, the reporter had surveyed the parking lot filled with Christian school and church buses and cars bearing ΙΧΘΥΣ fish and fundamentalist bumper stickers and he estimated that at least 90% of the audience arrived pro-creationism. At the end of the debate, creationism got two-thirds of the vote so the creationists declared a victory. But in reality they had lost about 23% of the audience (dropping from 90% to 67%), so they actually lost.

      This issue may be better addressed by a discussion on whether religion should be encouraged in education or not.

      No, not encouraged, since that would involve government establishment of religion which is a clear violation of the First Amendment.

      However, that does not mean that it shouldn't be taught in the appropriate classes and in an appropriate manner. As the Science Framework says:

      quote:
      Such beliefs should be discussed in the social science and language arts curricula. The Board's position has been stated in the History-Social Science Framework (adopted by the Board).

      Rather, the appropriate place to encourage religion is in the church, in the public square, and ultimately in the home. The authority to determine what religious instruction a child should receive resides in the parents and in the parents alone! Seeking to have the government take that parental right away from the parents is an abomination!

      Yes, the student should be made aware of and familiarized with the widespread presence of the evolutionary mindset.

      Just what the hell are you talking about? What "evolutionary mindset"? No such thing exists any more than there's an "electronics mindset" or a "muffin method mindset."

      All you're doing is repeating a fake bogeyman that was created to scare you. If you truly believe that there is such a thing, then you must present it and your evidence for it, and then be ready to discuss it.

      BTW, there is absolutely no inherent conflict between a supernatural creator god and evolution. An actual creationist believes that a Creator created the physical universe and hence the real world is as we find it because that's how it was created to be and to function. As such, there can be no conflict between that Creator and the findings of science. Conflict arises only when a creationist holds beliefs that are contrary to fact and hence believes that if the real world is actually as we find it then that disproves God. For example, John Morris, now-President of the ICR, stated "If the earth is more than 10,000 years old then Scripture has no meaning." Well, the earth is in fact very much older than 10,000 years, so according to him Scripture has no meaning, which I know from my Jesus Freak training is that same as saying God either does not exist or is totally unworthy of worship. Congrats, creationists, you have accomplished what even the most rabid anti-theist could never do: you have disproven God.

      But if evolutionary teaching is to be seen as that of pure science, then why do scientists that support Biblical creation tend to be looked down upon?

      By "scientists that support Biblical creation" I take you to mean creationists. And particularly those of the "creation science" ilk. Practitioners of a deliberately created deception.

      Creationists are looked down upon because they are party to a political agenda that attacks science education, trying to damage it and even destroy it. They misrepresent what science is and teaches, often even to the point of outright lying -- while most followers, undoubtedly including yourself, know far too little to realize that they are peddling falsehoods, the better educated creationist know better and yet they zealously push the lies. That is especially true of the creationists with actual scientific training.

      So, what about their sorry misdeeds and malfeasance is not deserving of being looked down upon?

      I started studying "creation science" back around 1981, four decades ago. I sincerely wanted to learn what their evidence was, only to learn that it didn't exist. The more I looked into their claims, the more I could see them lying about science. Then I encountered their deliberate lying and other forms of gross and flagrant dishonesty. In all those four decades, I have never seen a creationist present a single valid argument nor truthful claim. Never! Nothing but lies and deception from hypocrites who claim to worship a god that is the personification of Truth. You keep paying lip service to "Biblical truth." Coming from a creationist, I recognize that as code for "even greater numbers of even more audacious lies."

      Thank you for your "Christian witness." Actually reading the Bible is what innoculated me from Christianity. "Creation science" provides me my boosters to keep me save from that false religion. Considering that about 80% of those raised in the faith grow up to run away from that religion as fast as they can, it is helping them as well.

      Gee, having had all that knowledge and wisdom dumped upon you, how could you still be so completely ignorant of obvious facts?
  3. Truth should support truth, but in four decades of studying "creation science" and its many claims and arguments, I cannot say that I have ever encountered a single one which has proven to be true, or even valid in any way. Creationism has proven to be nothing but a pack of lies. Since when must the truth be supported by lies?
 
I hope that you will reply this time. Or will you still flee?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2061 by EWolf, posted 09-23-2022 10:20 PM EWolf has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2065 by Theodoric, posted 09-24-2022 10:46 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2066 of 2073 (898482)
09-25-2022 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 2061 by EWolf
09-23-2022 10:20 PM


I'll start right off by repeating yet again one of my questions that you have never answered:
DWise1 writes:
Why do you advocate that the government should be compelled to impose indoctrination in some arbitrarily chosen religion on school children in direct violation of their parents' right to choose the religious tradition to raise their children in?
If you wish to falsely claim that you have done no such thing, then support your false claim! Refer to my Message 2015 again for the points about education that you would need to address.
Now to address your latest advocating that the government conduct such indoctrination.
Where there is war there are battles and the battles for the truth of our beginning are intense! The fight is over which is to be considered as fact. The effort to teach evolutionary doctrine to the coming generation as fact directly opposes not only the church that informs of the Biblical word of God by which we all live, ...
What the hell are you babbling about?
  • What "battles" in what "war"? Oh! It's this f**king stupid "culture war" that you fundies and GQP have declared on all us normals, isn't it?
    Dude! Wake up! You're being fed a stream of lies! A firehose of lies!
    Referring to creationism, there's this local YEC activist (call him "Bill") who got started over 30 years ago. Longish story (I've been observing him over 30 years and had an extremely unproductive 20-year-long email correspondence with him). Long story short, he would always evade with "gotcha" "impossible questions" (eg, "describe in complete detail every single evolutionary step from bacteria to blue whale"). I would indeed respond to his "unanswerable questions" expecting some kind of discussion (he would, after all, always express "extreme interest in knowing that answer", but then always evade all attempts at discussion of his question (that he was "so extremely interested in knowing.") Recently, he repeated the same "question" he had thrown at me in 1998 and which I answered but then he suddenly changed the subject. This time it was "How do you think sexual reproduction originated?", to which I responded by pointing him to my page on that exchange from 1998 and added a very simple and pertinent question: "In addition, what problems do you suggest sexual reproduction poses?" He completely ignored it, as always.
    I have finally come to realize that he is no better than the creationists we encounter online: all he knows is how repeat verbatim the BS he's been taught, so he does not understand it, which means that he cannot discuss it with anybody let alone even begin to defend it, which means that when caught in such a situation, he will attempt any escape possible.
    OBTW, are you noticing a pattern there?
    Also, this ties back to the difference between your indoctrination and our education. Since the goal of education is understanding the subject, that means that it is presented to us, they explain how it works (and whether it does), what its strengths and weaknesses are, and in the end we need to demonstrate that we can work with it and answer any questions about it and be able to explain it to somebody else well enough for them to also understand it. IOW, they get you to think about the subject. A central part of learning is to ask questions about the subject, even to the point of whether it does actually work and how, including subjecting it to proofs (assuming a sufficient mathematical basis that would be conducive to proofs -- eg, in calculus you learn how to perform an operation (eg, finding the derivative of a particular type of function, such as axn) by doing the proof for it ((axn)' = anx(n-1), which I rederived one late night just for fun nearly half a century after having learned it the first time)). That is the power of education: it prepares the student for being able to analyze a question and to discuss it and to work with it.
    But indoctrination doesn't give you the same skills as education does, not even close. In indoctrination, the goal is for you to be told what you are required to believe and then compel you to believe. You are not allowed (or at least discouraged) to think, to ask any questions, to test the subject in any manner. Nor to you ever learn how the subject is supposed to work. You just memorize it without any understanding. In the calculus example, you would just memorize the derivatives of the types of functions and never go through any proof. But if anybody asks you a question that requires you to understand the subject instead of just simply reciting what you had memorized, then you are unable to answer that question ... or even understand what is being asked. You can rattle off lots of claims without breaking a sweat, but you are then dumbfounded when asked to discuss even one of those claims. The single most terrifying question for someone who had only been indoctrination (and not educated) has proven to be: "What are you talking about?"
    Back to Bill as an example of indoctrination. For over 30 years Bill has been very active in "challenging" and "debating" "evolutionists", many of them actually trained in the sciences (he is a licensed Mechanical Engineer, but then some of the worst creationists are engineers because they don't actually know science nor how to do it, but rather only think that they do). And in all those decades of being exposed to so much good information which his indoctrination had trained him to ignore, his present statements are just as completely ignorant as his old ones from decades ago. He has not learned anything! (well, outside of which of his creationist claims he had to avoid using because his opponents could tear them apart with ease ... most of those are the young-earth claims which are also the weakest). He boasts of how much he knows, but he still, after all these decades of having evolution explained to him by experts, has no idea what evolution is nor how it works. The evidence for that is that nothing he has said in all that time made any sense at all. And he could never explain anything, not even why he would think that one of his "challenging" questions is supposed to pose any problem for evolution. And he would always run away in terror at the sight of that question: "What are you talking about?"
    Like every single other creationist, Bill avoids defining or describing or presenting or discussing what he thinks evolution is or how it works. Like you keep doing!
    Break that vicious cycle! Answer the question!
  • "The fight is over which is to be considered as fact."
    No, the fight is over whether to educate or to indoctrinate. Your side insists on indoctrination, which directly opposes the goal of education, which is as I quoted to you yet again in Message 2064:
    quote:
    Nothing in science or in any other field of knowledge shall be taught dogmatically. Dogma is a system of beliefs that is not subject to scientific test and refutation. Compelling belief is inconsistent with the goal of education; the goal is to encourage understanding.
    To be fully informed citizens, students do not have to accept everything that is taught in the natural science curriculum, but they do have to understand the major strands of scientific thought, including its methods, facts, hypotheses, theories, and laws.
    A scientific fact is an understanding based on confirmable observations and is subject to test and rejection. A scientific hypothesis is an attempt to frame a question as a testable proposition. A scientific theory is a logical construct based on facts and hypotheses that organizes and explains a range of natural phenomena. Scientific theories are constantly subject to testing, modification, and refutation as new evidence and new ideas emerge. Because scientific theories have predictive capabilities, they essentially guide further investigations.
    From time to time natural science teachers are asked to teach content that does not meet the criteria of scientific fact, hypothesis, and theory as these terms are used in natural science and as defined in this policy. As a matter of principle, science teachers are professionally bound to limit their teaching to science and should resist pressure to do otherwise. Administrators should support teachers in this regard.
    Philosophical and religious beliefs are based, at least in part, on faith and are not subject to scientific test and refutation. Such beliefs should be discussed in the social science and language arts curricula. The Board's position has been stated in the History-Social Science Framework (adopted by the Board). If a student should raise a question in a natural science class that the teacher determines is outside the domain of science, the teacher should treat the question with respect. The teacher should explain why the question is outside the domain of natural science and encourage the student to discuss the question further with his or her family and clergy.
    Neither the California nor the United States Constitution requires that time be given in the curriculum to religious views in order to accommodate those who object to certain material presented or activities conducted in science classes. It may be unconstitutional to grant time for that reason.
    ...
    However, the United States Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion, and local governing boards and school districts are encouraged to develop statements, such as this one on policy, that recognize and respect that freedom in the teaching of science. Ultimately, students should be made aware of the difference between understanding, which is the goal of education, and subscribing to ideas.
    Note the use of "shall" in the first sentence. The legal definition and use of "shall" is to identify a hard requirement, something which must be done.
    Note also that the purpose and goal of education is to promote knowledge and understanding of ideas independent of whether they are true or not (eg, we still teach about the Ptolometic system and spontaneous generation while also teaching what's wrong with them) and without compelling belief in them, whereas the indoctrination you are pushing for would work against knowledge and understanding while compelling belief in falsehoods. Historic note: during the Arkansas creationist trial (1981) a teacher broke into tears because the creationist law required him to lie to his students.
  • "The effort to teach evolutionary doctrine to the coming generation as fact directly opposes not only the church that informs of the Biblical word of God by which we all live, ... "
    Well, evolution is a fact. As long as you have populations of organisms doing what life always does, those populations will inevitably evolve, either by changing or by remaining the same (yes, statis is also a result of evolution). The evolutionary theory is our attempts to describe and understand how the fact of evolution works.
    Your attempts to ignore the obvious fact of evolution is just that, denial. And your objections to theory just demonstrate that you do not understand what a theory is, which is so sadly typical of creationists.
    Plus that brings us up against the enormous problem that you create by refusing to answer our very simple question: What the hell are you talking about? You keep bringing up "evolutionary doctrine" and "evolutionary mindset", BUT YOU NEVER TELL US WHAT THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE, NOR WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!
    To repeat my questions yet again:
    DWise1 writes:
    1. There is no inherent conflict between Divine Creation and evolution (nor any other science for that matter); the only conflicts that arise are due to foolish and contrary-to-fact ideas about Creation and even more foolish and contrary-to-reality ideas about evolution.
      All your assertions indicate that you believe that there is some kind of inherent conflict between Creation and evolution. Why would you believe such a thing? What are the reasons for your belief in that? What are the actual points of conflict that you perceive and why do you see them as conflicts? Provide some kind of reasoned argument, not more baseless bald assertions, please.
    2. What do you think evolution is? Or how it works? Until we know the answers to those questions, none of your conclusions about evolution can make any sense.
      Seriously, what are your unstated assumptions about evolution. For decades, we keep hearing the same nonsensical assertions about and "disproofs" of "evolution" but never ever any basis for those assertions. So yet again, what are you talking about?
    3. That brings us back around to that primary question of just exactly what is this "evolution mindset" you keep blathering about and what is it based on? That is yet another bald assertion that is nothing but nonsense since we do not know what your assumptions are and hence we cannot know what you are talking about.
    4. What do you think the consequences are of evolution being true? Why do you think that? (again, a reasoned argument, please, not just more baseless bald assertions) Of course, in order to answer that we would need to establish what you think evolution is.
    5. I don't think we were able to establish whether you are a young-earth creationist. If you are, then what would the consequences be of the earth actually being billons of years old? Again, why do you think those must be the consequences?
    6. Why do you advocate that the government should be compelled to impose indoctrination in some arbitrarily chosen religion on school children in direct violation of their parents' right to choose the religious tradition to raise their children in?
      If you wish to falsely claim that you have done no such thing, then support your false claim! Refer to my Message 2015 again for the points about education that you would need to address.
    7. Bonus Question: Since all theology is created by Man, if error is found in one's theology, then what does that mean about God? And what should one do about that error which has been found?
    NEW QUESTION: Why do you refuse to answer any of these highly pertinent questions? What are you trying to hide? What kind of neferious intent are you practicing?
    Also:
    ... directly opposes not only the church that informs of the Biblical word of God ...
    Well, that wouldn't be the case if your church and your fallible human interpretations of the Bible (including your reading a lot of extra nonsense into your Bible which you fundies do far too often) weren't so contrary to fact and contrary to reality.
 
More to come, especially concerning your nonsense about the Declaration of Independence. Though I guess you're going to ground yet again to avoid reality. That doesn't help anybody.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2061 by EWolf, posted 09-23-2022 10:20 PM EWolf has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2068 of 2073 (898543)
09-25-2022 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2061 by EWolf
09-23-2022 10:20 PM


EWolf, Creationists Must Learn Evolution For Their Own Good
In the meantime, here are some more thoughts about the contrast between education and indoctrination and how indoctrination impacts creationists so negatively, such that:
It is absolutely imperative that creationists be educated in evolution in order to be able to fight it. As it now stands, creationists know nothing about evolution because they have been indoctrinated with lies instead have having been educated. As a result, they are unable to explain or defend creationism.
Remember (as discussed in my Message 2064 and Message 2066) that:
  • The goal of education is for the students to understand the subject matter without compelling belief in it. That means that the student can study any subject in order to know about it and to understand it. The process of education leads to the student knowing the facts about the subject, how it works (or doesn't), its strengths and weaknesses, supporting evidence for it, and (perhaps the most important aspect) being able to explain it to someone else. Furthermore, the student is encouraged to think about the subject matter and even to question it, even to the point of testing it (with testing often being part of the study plan).
    Thus through the process of education, the student comes out with valuable skills for learning and assessing a subject as well as being able to discuss it.
  • The sole goal of indoctrination is to tell the student what he is required to believe and then to compel him to believe it. The student does not learn anything more about it nor is expected to think about nor understand it. For that matter, questioning it is either discouraged or outright forbidden, while the very thought of testing it is never allowed to arise.
    Education increases knowledge and understanding.
    Thus the process of indoctrination deprives the student of the valuable skills from education. The victim of indoctrination is left completely unable to even explain any of it. Thus indoctrination leaves its victim incapable of discussion.
    Indoctrination only increases ignorance.
Before I had given much thought about the difference between education and indoctrination, I had a very telling online exchange with a creationist (I'm sure it was on CompuServe). It was so painfully obvious that he didn't know what he was talking about regarding evolution that I tried to encourage him to study evolution so that he could mount a better offense against it. He absolutely refused to do so because "Learning education would require me to believe in it!" That is a classic consequence of viewing learning as indoctrination, as well as very strong motivation to never ever convert to his mind-narrowing religion.
Now consider this Scripture (well, it should be included):
quote:
Sun Tzu, Scroll III (Offensive Strategy):
31. Therefore I say: "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril.
32. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal.
33. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril."
(Sun Tzu The Art of War, translation by Samuel B. Griffith, Oxford University Press, 1963)
Your avowed enemy is evolution (or rather your grossly bizaare misrepresentation of it, or whatever it is you call "evolution"), yet you are completely ignorant of it. As per Verse 32, you might still have a chance so long as you know yourself, but you don't. You are also greatly ignorant of yourself. Therefore, you are certain in every battle to be in peril, as per Verse 33.
And also a non-scroll source, the Governor of Mississippi, circa 1990, give or take a few years, quoted here from memory from a radio newscast at the time. He was explaining why he was campaigning so hard for education reform in his state:
quote:
We know that ignorance doesn't work, because we've already tried it!
But creationists haven't learned that simple lesson, cleaving to ignorance as if their very souls depended on their ignorance. Yet another reason to stay far away from your religion.
That is why I have been asking you those questions which you must be able to answer in order to know your enemy and to know yourself! Yet again:
  1. There is no inherent conflict between Divine Creation and evolution (nor any other science for that matter); the only conflicts that arise are due to foolish and contrary-to-fact ideas about Creation and even more foolish and contrary-to-reality ideas about evolution.
    All your assertions indicate that you believe that there is some kind of inherent conflict between Creation and evolution. Why would you believe such a thing? What are the reasons for your belief in that? What are the actual points of conflict that you perceive and why do you see them as conflicts? Provide some kind of reasoned argument, not more baseless bald assertions, please.
  2. What do you think evolution is? Or how it works? Until we know the answers to those questions, none of your conclusions about evolution can make any sense.
    Seriously, what are your unstated assumptions about evolution. For decades, we keep hearing the same nonsensical assertions about and "disproofs" of "evolution" but never ever any basis for those assertions. So yet again, what are you talking about?
  3. That brings us back around to that primary question of just exactly what is this "evolution mindset" you keep blathering about and what is it based on? That is yet another bald assertion that is nothing but nonsense since we do not know what your assumptions are and hence we cannot know what you are talking about.
  4. What do you think the consequences are of evolution being true? Why do you think that? (again, a reasoned argument, please, not just more baseless bald assertions) Of course, in order to answer that we would need to establish what you think evolution is.
  5. I don't think we were able to establish whether you are a young-earth creationist. If you are, then what would the consequences be of the earth actually being billons of years old? Again, why do you think those must be the consequences?
Those are the questions that you must be able to answer, or at least be able to take a serious attempt at. But you cannot. Therefore, in every battle you will be in constant peril.
And of course there's still that other question that you also keep dodging:
Why do you advocate that the government should be compelled to impose indoctrination in some arbitrarily chosen religion on school children in direct violation of their parents' right to choose the religious tradition to raise their children in?
If you wish to falsely claim that you have done no such thing, then support your false claim!
Please come out of hiding and address the issues. At least try to answer the questions.
Or are you conceding that you have absolutely nothing?
Please come out of hiding and address the issues. At least try to answer the questions.
And please stop trying to sabotage the ability of young creationists to join the battle against evolution by preventing them from learning about it. Here is the testimonial of one such young person who I think has become an atheist because of creationism:
quote:
Also a propos is this quote by a former young-earth creationist, Steve Rauch (from The Effect of Scientific Error in Christian Apologetics at Glenn R. Morton's old site circa 1998):
quote:
About a year and a half ago, I was a firm special creationist. I am now a believer in evolution; not even sure if God is required. In 1995, Glenn Morton wrote to Stephen Jones about Stephen's provisional acceptance of common descent (as quoted by SJ Sunday, January 11, 1998 5:16 PM), "I know exactly how difficult a paradigm shift like that is." Well, let me tell you, the shift is absolutely devastating. I'm still struggling with all this. I still hold some anger because I believe the evangelical Christian community did not properly prepare me for the creation/evolution debate. They gave me a gun loaded with blanks, and sent me out. I was creamed.

That's what "arming them with ammo against evolution" is: just handing them blanks.
Thank you for your continual and steadfast support for the growth and spread of atheism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2061 by EWolf, posted 09-23-2022 10:20 PM EWolf has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2073 of 2073 (911655)
07-21-2023 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2070 by EWolf
07-20-2023 9:11 PM


So you want to get rid of evolution. Though you never told us why, which is not surprising since you obviously have to idea yourself.
But now you want to also get rid of most other sciences like geology, seismology, archeology, astronomy, astrophysics, biology, meteorology, many parts of physics, etc, all because of a non-requirement that they be able to reproduce everything. Why impose such a non-requirement on science? Applying the same criterion, I'd like to see you reproduce key parts of your religion including the Parting of the Red Sea, the feeding of the masses (loaves and fish), a few Resurrections. Why do you get to impose that non-requirement on science and not on your own religion?
For that matter, why did you only impose it explicitly to one and only one science (actually, not a separate science but rather a major part of the science of biology), evolution? Why do you have such a hard-on for evolution? We've asked you that question repeatedly, but you always refuse to answer. Do you even know yourself? As a child were you frightened by an old bald man with a long beard? What's going on with you?
Look, the simple truth is that creationists are lying to you. And they are grooming you to also be a liar. And they are grooming you to enable them to groom schoolchildren into becoming lying creationists.
One creationist lie is to redefine science -- that's the one you have just repeated here and it's an old one, decades old. Another creationist lie that you have swallowed is that science is atheistic and anti-God so you must destroy science education -- though many creationists will waffle on that one because they love their computers and flush toilets too much.
I have asked you important questions that you have ignored: from when you last posted (Message 2061 nearly a year ago, I repeated those questions in my Message 2066 and Message 2068. I have even bumped those questions repeatedly for you to answer.
They're not "gotcha" questions nor are they any attempt to trap you. Rather, they are intended to get you to think and to finally tell us what no creationist can (because they do not know it themselves), what no creationist could ever dare, what terrifies all creationists: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
Your own refusal to answer those questions, along with the same refusal from all creationists, can lead to only one conclusion: you are promoting lies and deception in order to serve your god. And we all know from Christian doctrine the only Christian god to be served through lies and deception.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2070 by EWolf, posted 07-20-2023 9:11 PM EWolf has not replied

  
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