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Author Topic:   The Problem of Suffering
Taq
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Posts: 8589
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 31 of 105 (898332)
09-22-2022 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Greatest I am
09-22-2022 12:48 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Greatest I am writes:
The problem of evil is just not us recognizing the beauty of our dualistic reality and that there is a lot more good than evil in the world.
What about the Problem of Suffering? If God does care about us then why let people needlessly suffer?
If it did not happen, reproduction would have to eventually stop, as the world would become overpopulated.
An all powerful deity could not create a universe where overpopulation was not a problem?
What is heaven supposed to be like? Will heaven have disease, illness, and death? If not, then why does the Earth have to have these things?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 12:48 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 3:29 PM Taq has replied
 Message 36 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 8:48 PM Taq has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7019
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 32 of 105 (898343)
09-22-2022 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Taq
09-22-2022 1:05 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Will heaven have disease, illness, and death? If not, then why does the Earth have to have these things?
I can think of two possibilities real quick. God is an evil asshole or it doesn’t exist and we are at the mercy of the purposeless dispassionate natural world. I prefer the latter.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Taq, posted 09-22-2022 1:05 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2022 3:49 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 34 by Taq, posted 09-22-2022 4:00 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 37 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 8:49 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8666
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 33 of 105 (898347)
09-22-2022 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
09-22-2022 3:29 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I reckon he's just an autistic hobbyist, instead of building a massive train set out of matchsticks he decided to make loads of stars and just couldn't stop.
We're an accident that he hasn't noticed yet. If he ever does, it's game over, we've made a mess in the corner of the Sol system, he's not going to like it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 3:29 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8589
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 34 of 105 (898350)
09-22-2022 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
09-22-2022 3:29 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
AZPaul3 writes:
God is an evil asshole or it doesn’t exist and we are at the mercy of the purposeless dispassionate natural world. I prefer the latter.
I lean towards the latter as well. The universe is indifferent to the fate of human kind. It cares as much about our suffering as it cares about the orbit of a moon around Jupiter. That seems to fit the universe I see better than the idea of a omnipotent deity who claims to care about us.
Can't help but think of George Carlin in moments like this:
quote:
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!”
--George Carlin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 3:29 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 35 of 105 (898372)
09-22-2022 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tangle
09-22-2022 12:55 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I spoke of the earth, not heaven
The earth though is heaven to me, given that it is the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world.
If you have any suggestions to do better for life than the evolutionary system we live in, please offer it.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2022 12:55 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2022 2:35 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 46 by ringo, posted 09-23-2022 11:57 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 36 of 105 (898373)
09-22-2022 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Taq
09-22-2022 1:05 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Why would you think a supernatural God would care about us?
If a God cared about us, he would not remain a deadbeat dad.
As to suffering, I think it would be quite stupid for a God to sit there and create situations of suffering.
The only source of intentionally inflicted suffering or pain is all from human to human interaction.
Nature hurts us but only inadvertently.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Taq, posted 09-22-2022 1:05 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 09-23-2022 12:01 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 37 of 105 (898374)
09-22-2022 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
09-22-2022 3:29 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Ditto.
Reality based thinking is superior to supernatural thinking.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 3:29 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8666
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 38 of 105 (898380)
09-23-2022 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Greatest I am
09-22-2022 8:41 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
The earth though is heaven to me, given that it is the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world.

If you have any suggestions to do better for life than the evolutionary system we live in, please offer it.
You have a weird idea of perfect. Half the world is starving, the other half is trying to kill each other..
Why does this god of yours require this bizarre experiment of earth at all?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 8:41 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 9:43 AM Tangle has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 39 of 105 (898383)
09-23-2022 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tangle
09-23-2022 2:35 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
My God is not causing all this.
Other Gods are.
My God is fighting it.
Few see the evolving perfection of reality.
We would not have a climate problem if we looked better.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2022 2:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2022 10:03 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 09-23-2022 12:03 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8666
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 40 of 105 (898385)
09-23-2022 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Greatest I am
09-23-2022 9:43 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
My God is not causing all this.

Other Gods are.
Which other gods?
My God is fighting it.
He's a pretty crap god then - he's losing.
Few see the evolving perfection of reality.
Well that at least is correct - like I say, you have a weird idea of perfection.

Edited by Tangle, .


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 9:43 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 10:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 41 of 105 (898387)
09-23-2022 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tangle
09-23-2022 10:03 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
It is an accurate view of reality, that can actually be argued.
The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.
Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?
Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”
That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2022 10:03 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2022 10:56 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8666
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 42 of 105 (898388)
09-23-2022 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Greatest I am
09-23-2022 10:50 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Thanks, perhaps you could answer my questions next?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 10:50 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 11:08 AM Tangle has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 43 of 105 (898389)
09-23-2022 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Tangle
09-23-2022 10:56 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
You seem unable to connect the dots.
Who is God according to what I put already?
If your reading comprehension is low, there is not much more I can say.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2022 10:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2022 11:31 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8666
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 44 of 105 (898392)
09-23-2022 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Greatest I am
09-23-2022 11:08 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
You seem unable to connect the dots.

Who is God according to what I put already?

If your reading comprehension is low, there is not much more I can say.
My reading comprehension is fine, but given that I have no idea what you're trying to say with your gothic puzzle language, why not just tell me who these other gods are?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 11:08 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-23-2022 11:41 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 12:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3491
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 45 of 105 (898395)
09-23-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
09-23-2022 11:31 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I have no idea what you're trying to say with your gothic puzzle language
He's Yoda with a speech impediment.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2022 11:31 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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