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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7016
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 601 of 693 (898341)
09-22-2022 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 600 by Percy
09-22-2022 2:51 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
How is that in any way convincing that there are legitimate reasons for accepting the reality of what you (or anyone) believes spiritually?
Isn’t the number of faithful happy believers the evidence for god? It is a solid number that can be scientifically determined. So there is scientific evidence for GDR’s god, yes?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by Percy, posted 09-22-2022 2:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by Percy, posted 09-23-2022 8:28 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6105
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 602 of 693 (898349)
09-22-2022 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by GDR
09-22-2022 2:05 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Here is an interesting wiki piece on the subject. Quantum Mind
I won't say much about it, either, other than that I am skeptical.
Quantum mechanics is involved in everything, so it is likely to be involved in consciousness. But that doesn't mean we have to look for anything special.
When we look at someone, we can usually tell whether that person is conscious or unconscious. As far as I am concerned, consciousness should just mean the state of being conscious. But somehow, people have managed to throw in a lot of bullshit and woo.
As Stile argued in Message 592, being conscious is just part of our evolved nature. There isn't any real "problem of consciousness" .

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by GDR, posted 09-22-2022 2:05 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 4:05 PM nwr has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7016
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 603 of 693 (898352)
09-22-2022 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by nwr
09-22-2022 3:55 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
There isn't any real "problem of consciousness" .
There is a major problem with consciousness. Like dark matter. We don't know what it is or how it works but we are damn well going to find out.
The sooner we figure this out the sooner we can have real progress.
Then we can make AI systems with an AC (artificial consciousness) and they will be our gods.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by nwr, posted 09-22-2022 3:55 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by nwr, posted 09-22-2022 4:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6105
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 604 of 693 (898356)
09-22-2022 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 603 by AZPaul3
09-22-2022 4:05 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Then we can make AI systems with an AC (artificial consciousness)
I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 4:05 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 4:39 PM nwr has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7016
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 605 of 693 (898357)
09-22-2022 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by nwr
09-22-2022 4:31 PM


AI with AC
I'm not so sure. We are a very brilliant though very stupid species. We'll figure it out and then do something stupidly dangerous with it.
Where do see the stop that would keep us from such glory?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by nwr, posted 09-22-2022 4:31 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by nwr, posted 09-22-2022 11:36 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5613
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 606 of 693 (898366)
09-22-2022 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by PaulK
09-22-2022 12:57 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
Or more likely he never says any such thing, because he would know that it isn’t true.
C'mon, gimme a break. I'm not going to say that if it isn't true. If you get a copy of "Jesus and the Eyewitness" he writes `14 pages on the subject. (Pages 369 to 383)
PaulK writes:
Which is not nearly enough to make it evidence of authorship. As I explained before. Do you really not realise that the third person is used for a great many people who are NOT the author? I shouldn’t have had to make that point once, but that you should still not see it after repeated examples suggests a serious problem
In most of the book he doesn't use the 3rd person but only when he particularly wants to emphasize a point and establishing that he has personal knowledge.. A bit like the use of the Royal We

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by PaulK, posted 09-22-2022 12:57 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by PaulK, posted 09-23-2022 12:33 AM GDR has replied
 Message 613 by ringo, posted 09-23-2022 12:11 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5613
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 607 of 693 (898370)
09-22-2022 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Stile
09-22-2022 11:35 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Stile writes:
I don't see you acknowledging that huge jump.
You seem to simply assume that if God exists - then He definitely created humans, on purpose.
I see three levels:
1. God exists
-maybe God doesn't exist
2. God created humans
-maybe God didn't create humans and humans were created by something else (naturally? a bigger/different God?)
3. God created humans on purpose (ie - "bothered" to create humans.)
-maybe God didn't want to create humans, but had to. That is, perhaps in order to create all the stars He wanted in the way He wanted to, God had to accommodate for the low possibility of humans also being created. And then setup a contingency that for when human-creation happens they are contained to a very small portion of the universe.
To me - going from "if God exists, then He definitely created humans and it was definitely on purpose" is just a really big jump in itself.
There's no evidence for God, no evidence for God creating humans, and no evidence for God bothering to create humans on purpose.
The problem is for me that I am in some ways something of an agnostic on the belief that God created the universe. Frankly, it doesn’t matter one way or another to me. I have read so many books that I can't remember where I read the hypothesis that our universe is an "emergent property of a greater reality". My thinking goes kinda along with that line of thought.
I'll assume that hypothesis to be correct which means that our universe always existed in some form but only as one aspect or part os something much more, which would help explain the apparent infinite nature of our universe, as we are unable to perceive this greater reality.
I also am basically in agreement with Chris Barragar and his book Freedom All the Way Up where he proposes that God’s intention was to create creatures that were capable of “agape” love. That the evolutionary process was an open system and did not need humans as we are now. He suggests that God could know with a very high probability of what evolution would lead to but it was to be a world with an open future and thus the future was/is not there to be known.
I'll assume that hypothesis to be correct which means that our universe always existed in some form but only as one aspect or part os something much more, which would help explain the apparent infinite nature of our universe, as we are unable to perceive this greater reality.
Stile writes:
Consciousness existing is not the physical evidence that consciousness evolved naturally.
The physical evidence that consciousness evolved naturally is that it appears to be exactly the same as everything else we know to have evolved naturally.
And that other aspects of life we used to think "couldn't possibly evolve naturally" - we have learned more about evolution and identified that, actually, they did evolve naturally (like "the eye" and "fish -> mammals -> whales" and every other creationist issue that used to not have a natural answer and now does.)
Consciousness existing, alone, isn't evidence of anything other than its own existence.
There is A LOT of physical evidence for evolution and things evolving naturally. Consciousness is just another "thing" that looks like all the other "things" we know to have evolved naturally.
OK, say that it did evolve as simply a part of the evolutionary process. It still has very different properties than the physical world that we are used to. However, even if it did evolve naturally, (which I personally doubt), that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t ultimately the handiwork of a creative intelligence. It goes back to the question of why do natural processes exist, which is a much bigger question in my mind than the question of why does anything exist.
Stile writes:
f you move beyond what can be tested, for any reason, you don't "turn to philosophy" for answers. You understand that "answers" are currently unknowable.
Philosophy may provide answers.
Religion may provide answers.
Uncle John may provide answers.
Looking at the stars/bones/cards may provide answers.
But... all those answers are just as good as any other: meaningless if you're concerned with truth as the answer is currently unknowable.
But as you know, I don’t claim absolute knowledge. It is my belief, which I don’t expect it to be proven in this life. Nor do I expect scientific evidence for, but who knows. I do suggest though that philosophy, theology and maybe Uncle John asks questions which we can subjectively come up with answers.
I am out of time but I think that deals with all of your post.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Stile, posted 09-22-2022 11:35 AM Stile has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6105
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 608 of 693 (898377)
09-22-2022 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by AZPaul3
09-22-2022 4:39 PM


Re: AI with AC
Where do see the stop that would keep us from such glory?
A conscious AI would seem to require an objective account of the subjective. This looks impossible.
Our objective accounts emerge from our own subjective accounts.
If subjective can come from objective, and objective comes from subjective, then that would seem to leave the objective disconnected from reality.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 4:39 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 617 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2022 2:55 PM nwr has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17250
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 609 of 693 (898379)
09-23-2022 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 606 by GDR
09-22-2022 7:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
C'mon, gimme a break. I'm not going to say that if it isn't true.
You have no problem saying things that aren’t true. As a simple matter of logic it can’t be true that third person references are evidence of authorship. It wouldn’t be true even if authors always used the third person to refer to themselves - which is not the case.
More importantly if Bauckham does make that claim, it would be a very serious problem.
quote:
If you get a copy of "Jesus and the Eyewitness" he writes `14 pages on the subject. (Pages 369 to 383)
Most of which would be completely irrelevant. Anything establishing that ancient authors did refer to themselves in the third person, for instance. It’s the argument that matters here not the evidence (because we understand the evidence and the claim is laughably false).
quote:
In most of the book he doesn't use the 3rd person but only when he particularly wants to emphasize a point and establishing that he has personal knowledge.. A bit like the use of the Royal We

The author of Matthew does no such thing. Assuming you mean John, this behaviour still seems strange. [Corrected] How does pretending not to be a witness establish personal knowledge? That’s bizarre. A Roman author wanting to establish personal knowledge would indicate such - using the first person.
[ABE]
Reading around I have found that the reality is even worse for you than you are prepared to admit. Bauckham does not endorse Matthean authorship and does endorse Q. The whole idea that Bauckham argued that the use of the third person is evidence of authorship in Matthew is clearly false. He clearly doesn’t endorse your false argument for Matthean priority - that it gets rid of Q - either.

Edited by PaulK, .

Edited by PaulK, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by GDR, posted 09-22-2022 7:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by GDR, posted 09-23-2022 8:26 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21151
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 610 of 693 (898382)
09-23-2022 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 601 by AZPaul3
09-22-2022 3:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
Isn’t the number of faithful happy believers the evidence for god? It is a solid number that can be scientifically determined. So there is scientific evidence for GDR’s god, yes?
I'm not sure whether you're being serious or facetious. How is what someone believes exists, whether it's unicorns or Thor or the Christian God, evidence that it does actually exist? How could baseless unevidenced beliefs ever be evidence of anything real?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 3:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by Phat, posted 09-23-2022 9:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 612 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2022 10:29 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16333
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 611 of 693 (898384)
09-23-2022 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 610 by Percy
09-23-2022 8:28 AM


EvC. Evidence vs Creationism
He is being facetious! AZ is a staunch anti-theist. He knows there is no way to "prove" God even through the logical fallacy known as Appeal To Popularity. I would suggest that even if every human on the planet except you and AZ Paul3 insisted that God was real and relayed story after story after story of their own personal experience, you and he would dismiss ALL of them due to no objective evidence. That's the real E in EvC. EVIDENCE vs Creationism. It's the whole argument.
Believers such as myself feel a need to validate God and enter Him into the record while critical thinking humanists such as the lot of you defend the sacredness of objective evidence and swat down any and ALL Gods, GODS and gods presented. It's what we do here. Tangle jumped with glee recently when I tacitly admitted the logic of my opponent's arguments.
The only thing GDR and I have is the defense of our own belief and how we rate it on a par with objective evidence. I don't know about him, but I don't see myself backing away from that stance and joining the rest of you. I may have lost the argument but I see my God winning the war. (Again...no objective evidence that He even exists)
In general, believers not only need no objective evidence, but they also don't WANT to question and throw God away, as jar always suggested that I do. He claimed that I did not know how to think. What he and you and others here really mean is that I won't embrace critical thought as a tool to validate or refute my beliefs. And so here we are.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by Percy, posted 09-23-2022 8:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by ringo, posted 09-23-2022 12:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7016
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 612 of 693 (898386)
09-23-2022 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 610 by Percy
09-23-2022 8:28 AM


Sorry. That was a throw-away post. I wasn't expecting a response given how dumb it was.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by Percy, posted 09-23-2022 8:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19989
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 613 of 693 (898403)
09-23-2022 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by GDR
09-22-2022 7:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
If you get a copy of "Jesus and the Eyewitness" he writes `14 pages on the subject.
I once told somebody here, "I could do a thousand posts standing on my head."
But quantity doesn't guarantee quality.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by GDR, posted 09-22-2022 7:04 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21151
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 614 of 693 (898404)
09-23-2022 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 566 by GDR
09-19-2022 3:48 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
If there were evidence in what you've read then you would present it here.
Arguing that, "Some very smart guys believe this," is easily countered with, "Some very smart guys don't believe this." We've been over this time and again. Why are you raising this issue yet again?
If you've got evidence, present it. If you don't have evidence, if all you can do is continually cycle through all your unevidenced arguments, then you don't really have anything.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 3:48 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19989
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 615 of 693 (898405)
09-23-2022 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 611 by Phat
09-23-2022 9:53 AM


Re: EvC. Evidence vs Creationism
Phat writes:
That's the real E in EvC. EVIDENCE vs Creationism. It's the whole argument.
That may be the smartest thing you've ever said here.
Phat writes:
I may have lost the argument but I see my God winning the war.
I see a war long ago in a galaxy far, far away - but I can distinguish that from the computer I see in front of me.
Phat writes:
In general, believers not only need no objective evidence, but they also don't WANT to question....
Two smart things in one day.
It is all about what you WANT, not what IS.
Phat writes:
What he and you and others here really mean is that I won't embrace critical thought as a tool to validate or refute my beliefs.
Hat trick!
The question is, "Why not?" Why wouldn't you use a saw to saw a board or a drill to drill a hole or a hammer to hammer a nail?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Phat, posted 09-23-2022 9:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-23-2022 2:55 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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