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Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
You will have to forgive me if I have difficulty distinguishing mockery from a serious argument when carrying on a discussion with people that think that blizzards turn lizards into buzzards with gizzards. Oh, so you are one of those completely idiotic creationists who spread the lie that anyone claims that lizards evolved into birds. Only a creationist would be so utterly stupid!
Dinosaurs were not lizards, you idiot! They were about as distantly related to lizards as they were to turtles. Are you also going to try to claim that anyone thinks that birds had evolved from turtles? I wouldn't put it past you! Just face the simple fact that you creationists are idiots. And even Dredge, a self-certified idiot with the mental capacity of a three-year-old, realized and voluntarily stated that all creationists are evil. Because of "evilution", which I identify as their gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of evolution. Maybe if you were to study evolution instead of your "evilution" you might learn something.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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He's a creationist, so what can you expect?
In my four decades of experience, I've learned that almost no creationist ever knows what he is talking about. All they know is what creationists have told them, which they memorize and are able to spout off at the drop of a hat (which is why I never wear a hat -- old Woody Allen joke about an ex-wife: "She'd have sex at the drop of a hat, but the marriage failed because I wouldn't wear a hat"). Basically, they learn scripts of encounters which they play out all the time without ever understanding anything behind the script -- I saw this half a century ago with the proselytizing training materials for the Jesus Freaks and it hasn't changed the least bit since then (which is why I love to go off-script with them). That is why the worst thing you can do to a creationist is to try to discuss his claims with him (he has no response because he doesn't understand anything about his own claims except that he was taught that just uttering those magic words would cause "evolutionists" to shrivel up before his eyes) but far worse than that would be to ask him, "What are your talking about?" In decades of engaging online with creationists, none have ever even tried to answer that question honestly. Now, the YECs were easy. Their bogus claims were so transparently bogus that we could refute them immediately and with no effort (just think of candle2 and radiocarbon dating methods). But this new breed is a bit more difficult. The Old School creationists would assume authority far outside their fields of expertise and so made themselves very vulnerable -- of course so many of them had no expertise at all (eg, Kent Hovind), but some did have some expertise somewhere yet always pontificated far outside of it. They were and are so easy to refute. This new breed is a bit of a tougher nut to crack. They have acquired some degree of expertise, often in a field that most people find to be esoteric, and they try to stay close to that field. While even the most basic knowledge of science allows you to refute a YEC, this new breed requires you to be conversant in information theory and higher math in order to refute them. IOW, while they are still slinging basically the same old bullshit, their bullshit appears to be of a much finer quality (maybe at the peak of Mount Bandini instead of at its base). In all debates/encounters with creationists, we can immediately see that their claims are nonsense, but it's so much easier to show that a YEC's nonsense is nonsense than to show that for an IDiot's nonsense. IOW, it's nothing more than they old college maxim (especially for essay exams that you hadn't properly prepared for): "If you can't blind them with your brilliance, then baffle them with your bullshit." Yes, that is directly related to doing a "snow job" (I have been in a North Dakota blizzard; no howling wind but rather a dead silence as tons of snow dropped down upon you). Like the typical know-nothing creationist who only knows his script, LittleMan (auf deutsch heißt "little", "klein") keeps harping on the very small number of studies in his script, even though their math models of asexual reproduction are far insufficient to apply to sexual reproduction (as has been pointed out to him over and over again for so many times). All he knows is his script, so he is incapable of dealing with anything that goes off-script for him ... such as sexual reproduction. That is why he cannot deal with Taq nor with anybody else who tries to take him off-script. He keeps bragging about being such a mathematical genius, but if so then why doesn't he realize that mathematics are absolutely worthless unless applied properly. I am a retired software engineer. In addition, I pursued gaming on the side -- entering into a military career (which I ended up continuing in the reserves) I looked to wargaming as a way to analyze military operations ("Amateurs study battles; professionals study organization and logistics."). Almost every single program depends on a math model. There's some real-world situation or system that you need to represent and work with, which means that you need to create a math model of the situation or system. What are the input data, how to process them, and how to present the output? One approach I learned was to start with the output, figure out what inputs we needed, then figure out that middle ground of how to process the inputs to generate the outputs. On an even lower level, the issue of data representation would always come up (it was a much lower-level issue than Wikipedia would have it now). How do you represent all these factors in a computer program? Whatever else you can say, every single computer program depends on formulating a mathematical model. In MultiMate/excel I've created spreadsheets for the schedule of mortgage payments (in that example, it wasn't until year 26 of a 30-year mortgage that you've paid off half of the balance -- sickening, isn't that?) and much more recently federal income tax estimates. So Littleman wants to apply the math models for asexual reproduction to models for sexual reproduction. That makes as much sense as applying my mortgage spreadsheet models as being essential to estimating my federal income tax. Speaking as a retired software engineer with 36 years professional experience, I have that many years plus another 5 years of schooling of experience in that programming practice of modeling the data. LittleMan's hyper-attention to the mathematics at the expense of the math models they are supposed to support exposes a very serious vulnerability in his creationist bias. Linguistically, math is a language. Much as algebra is also a language (which serves as a very good teaching tool if applied properly). In English you can say things that are very true and profound, but also things that are very foolish and idiotic. The language is the same while the underlying argument is totally bogus. Similarly, math is dependent on the underlying math model. In formal logic, a logically valid argument is valid, but it can only lead to true conclusions if all its premises are true. Similarly, mathematics can only lead to true conclusions if the math model itself is true. So the proof is not so much in the math itself as it is in the math model itself. Set up an utterly false math model and the mathematics based on that model will prove it out conclusively. But base those calculations on a truer math model and you will get very different results. For example, the probability models that most creationists use for "evolution" are hopelessly hopeless. Make every change happen all at once out of nowhere. This is known as "single-step selection". The probability of that is astronomically small such that to so produce the alphabet in alphabetical order with a million attempts every second, would require multiple trillions of years to accomplish. Yet using cumulative selection in each generation in which the closest individual to the goal is selected to generate the next generation of attempts results in a solution in much under a minute of time. Such is the power of evolution (the cumulative selection model was patterned after how life itself and also evolution work). I have personally seen creationist "evolution models" which were quite literally based on coin tosses: "Evolution requires ten coin tosses to come up heads", "No it doesn't you idiot!" Until someone comes up with a proper math model for evolution, none of your BS applies, LittleMan. models (or
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Well, of course it would seem like a contradiction to an atheist, for an atheist cannot understand the mathematics of God. Is that anything like Bistromathics, which is based on the observation that the laws of mathematics break down completely when you're trying to figure out what each person in the group owes at a bistro:
quote: And actually atheists do understand and have figured out the "mathematics of God".
It doesn't add up! Which is one reason why we are atheists. Nu?
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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What Dredge is saying is that the creation of life is not a stochastic process. Who cares? It's like the demonstration chant:
quote: Regardless of how life arose, it did. And as soon as life did arise, evolution started working (maybe even before then). Evolution is the end result of life doing what life does. If you have life, then you also have evolution. You cannot separate the two. And if you were an actual creationist (instead of just a fake one) then you would know that even in the case of life arising through natural physical processes that the Creator had created those very processes, so life arising through natural processes would not in any way contradict the Creator. But being a clueless fake creationist, that would never have occurred to you. Creationists trying to deflect and divert the discussion to abiogenesis (an entirely different issue from evolution) is nothing but pure bullshit.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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HAA HAA HAA!
You fucking idiotic creationist! Just because you do not have a math model for evolution doesn't mean that those pointing out that your emperor has no clothes have one themselves.
What a fucking idiot you are! HAA HAA HAA! But seriously, we can smell your bullshit from a mile away. And it doesn't even begin to approach the smell of sandalwood.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Like I pointed out (and you even quoted and yet still don't understand), it don't mean a thing if you ain't got the right math model (doo-wah, doo-wah, doo-wah).
You're nothing but a bullshitting creationist who knows nothing more than your script. Most creationists are completely incapable of functioning outside of their scripts because they don't even begin to understand any part of their scripts. Maybe you are marginally better off than they are. Part of the problem is that while typical creationist scripts are almost trivially easy to expose as bullshit, IDiot scripts are a tougher nut to crack. Yes, they are still bullshit, but they are a better quality of bullshit (though it still doesn't smell like sandalwood). Mainly they are couched in non-trivial math and mathematical concepts (eg, information theory) that most people are not intimately familiar with, which requires refuters to have training in those esoteric fields in order to expose that bullshit for what it is. As Fred Edwords said nearly half a century ago about creationist nonsense (slightly paraphrased from memory):
quote: It doesn't matter even a single fetid dingo's kidney, let alone a load of them, how good your math is if your math model is total bollocks. I would be a fool to use my mortgage spreadsheet to figure out my income tax, or to try to solve the Kepler problem with my greenhouse control software, so why do you think that you can do the same thing and get the right results in violation of all the laws of Nature? Seriously, Littleman, unlike physics (which is rather simple to model) biology is not simple! If it would help, think of "biology" as a euphemism for sex (though judging by your apparent ignorance of sexual reproduction, it seems that your father never had The Talk with you). Biology is complicated and messy. Very messy. And very wet. When my general contractor father first tried to explain a sex bolt to me, I assumed it was called that because it was incomprehensible.
If you use a bogus math model than it doesn't matter a single fetid dingo's kidney how good your math is. Why does that simple truth repeatedly fly over your head? In computer science we have an acronym for that: GIGO -- "garbage in, garbage out" (or in your case, "garbage in, Gospel out" -- also, GIGO played a part in my former rating symbol for Data Systems Technician, DS (not apparent in the graphic, on the rate badge the inbound arrows were filled in and the outbound was empty, so "unprocessed garbage in, processed garbage out").
Half a century ago (c. 1970) I read Jesus Freak proselytizing training materials in which their tactic was to hit their victims with non-trivial questions intended to throw those victims off balance in order to either make them vulnerable to conversion or else to make on-lookers lose confidence in them. It is all dishonest bullshit! For the past few decades of trying to deal with creationists, they just keep using those same old bullshit tactics of the Jesus Freaks half a century ago! (so they/you haven't learned anything at all in the meantime?) Nothing that you have done here has been any different. Nu? (if you don't know any Yiddish, just refer to your Russian, ну?)
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Wow! You're nothing but a typical willfully stupid creationist!
HAA HAA HAA! So what are we supposed to think of your willfully stupid religion and god?
You fucking idiot! HAA HAA HAA!
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Thank you for proving my point. What point? That we can see through the stupidity of your position?
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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No one will ever be able to demonstrate that life arose "through natural physical processes", so your point is irrelevant. Bullshit. Please do try to keep up with the research. But nonetheless, what does that have to do with evolution? Which makes your entire diversion irrelevant.
Regardless of how life arose, it then immediately started to evolve. None of your bullshit diversion attempts can take that away. When life exists, it evolves! So your bullshit position is just that, bullshit.
What is an "actual creationist"? An actual creationist is one who actually believes that their god created the world and universe. "Creationists" (ie, fake creationists) love to cite previous and pioneering scientists as "creationists", which they were albeit actual creationists. They truly believed that God had created the universe so their scientific investigations served to ferret out details about God's Creation. Basically, the world and universe as we find it are evidence of God's Creation. In sharp contrast, modern creationists want to dictate to God how God had created, such that their claims amount to saying that "if the world and universe are as we find them, then that disproves God." That is what I call fake creationism. And you have mired yourself firmly in that insidious muck.
Qu’est-ce qu'un "fake creationist"? J'ai déjà repondu à cette question.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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The probability of life arising naturally from inanimate matter would be LESS than zero ... that's how IMPOSSIBLE it is So present us with your math model for that. I do realize that your new circle-jerk partner, Kleinman (AKA "Littleman"), doesn't understand the importance of math models, but they are vitally important! Have you actually calculated the probability of abiogenesis (also, which model of abiogenesis are you using?)? Or did your "source" (yet again, which model of abiogenesis did it use?) ? Do please give us something more substantial than random farts. Plus, if you were an actual creationist instead of a stupid fake creationist then answer me this: how could the outcome of processes created by GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!! ever be deemed as contradicting said GOD!!!!!!!!!! ? That is why your "creationism" is actually fake creationism. Because you keep misrepresenting the alternative as somehow disproving God. Which it clearly does not do, though it does disprove the bullshit creationist lies that you tell.
(cf. the probability that Christ will return is 1 ... ie, a certainty). HAA HAAA HAAAA!!! Sorry, but I had to lift myself up from the floor after having laughed at that. That "return" was promised within a single generation, which led early Christians to not plant any new fruit trees since they would never mature to the point of bearing any fruit. What part of failed prophecy! can you not understand?
ringo logic: "The probability of me winning the lottery one thousand times in row is not zero ... therefore it could happen." LOL!! Yes, it could happen. AND IT DOES HAPPEN QUITE REGULARLY! While you individually may not win the lottery, somebody always does! The game I play in California (if you never play, then you never win; though I just put in two dollars which amounts to once a month (retired, don't drive around much any more)) has its odds which I have calculated. I calculate my probability of winning SuperLotto as 2.414515×10-8, or 1 in 41,417,353. But when you have millions of players, then it's almost inevitable that somebody is going to win. So just what the fuck are you talking about?
Leave your embarrassing, anti-science, atheist fairy-tale behind and grow up. So when are yougoing to walk away from your own extremely stupid embarrassing, anti-science, theistic fairy tales? Please leave those stupidities behind.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
But you still have not presented your math model!
Without the proper math model for the system you're examining, all you're doing is throwing meaningless numbers around randomly.
WHAT IS THE MATH MODEL FOR YOUR "PROBABILITY CALCULATIONS"? Without a model, your numbers are absolutely meaningless. Instead, you should study up on research in abiogenesis. With the knowledge that you will gain you will be able to formulate a math model.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Dredge writes: As has been pointed out to him very clearly, probability cannot be less than zero, and yet still he persists. With all due respect, explaining how P (natural abiogenesis) < 0 is arrived at mathematically would be lost on you ... for the simple (no pun intended) reason that no atheist can understand the mathematics of God. Well, self-professed hyper-genius MrIntelligentDesign's "new ID" is so superior because its probability can be as high as five. That's five times higher than puny normal math's maximum probability of a mere "one". Like they say: "You can always tell a creationist; you just cannot tell him anything." Kleinman must be so proud to have Dredge on his side. They are so glad to have found each other. I would imagine that they were both finding it impossible to have a circle jerk all alone.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Sorry about the typo. It means 10-50 ... 10^-50 ... 1/10⁵⁰ Why don't you just simply use the HTML superscript tags: <SUP> </SUP> ? Thus 10 to the negative fiftieth power would be renderer as 10-50. Just that quick, just that easy. Use peak mode to see the tags in action. There's a corresponding pair of HTML subscript tags using SUB instead of SUP. For example, H2O, CO2, C6H12O6.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Atheists know that God=0. Actually, it's ID that proves that. ID wants to force science to include God and other such supernatural things. So, let's take a scientific function, f(x,y,z), and add onto it a "God term" God to get a new ID function, g(x,y,z), such that:
g(x,y,z) = f(x,y,z) + God Now apply both functions to the same real world situation, r, such that:
rf = f(x,y,z) rg = g(x,y,z) What we find is that there is no difference between the outcomes of that same real world situation using either of the two functions; ie:
rg = rf
So,
g(x,y,z) = f(x,y,z) f(x,y,z) + God = f(x,y,z) Subtracting function f() from both sides:
God = 0
Therefore God = zero. Proven by applying ID.
QED
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Only God knows how to perform abiogenesis - humans haven't got a hope in hell. So if God performed abiogenesis through natural processes, what then? Do you still deny it vehemently? Of course you do, because you are nothing more than a fake creationist! An actual creationist would believe that The Creator created The Creation as it is and as it works. Since The Creator created those very physical processes producing life from non-life, then abiogenesis would actually serve as witness for The Creator. But willfully stupid fake creationists like you insist that abiogenesis through natural processes disprove God. Such fucking stupid idiots you are! Learn the difference between single-step selection and cumulative selection -- refer to my pages starting at MONKEY for a more complete explanation (which I have absolutely no doubt that you are too afraid of to read). Creating something slightly complex and ordered (eg, the alphabet in alphabetical order) entirely at random through a series of single attempts to produce that string would, using a supercomputer fare more powerful than anybody's PC, require thousands of times more time that the universe is even estimated by exist (c. 13 billion years, not the stupid YEC 10,000 years). But then cumulative selection which consists of multiple attempts each being a small step from a previous next-best result accomplishes the task in seconds -- repeatedly, reliably, without fail.
Cumulative selection is based on evolution, which is why it works so well. In my examination of the probabilities involved (see MPROBS) I arrived at the conclusion that, as improbable as it was for any one advancement to work, the probability that all attempts in the population would fail consistently and repeatedly over all the generations just became far more vanishingly improbably, virtually impossible if you would, that those other improbabilities, so eventual advancement of at least one individual became inevitable, like a single individual in an entire large population playing the lottery eventually winning the jackpot. In contrast, single-step selection is much more modeled on creation ex nihilo, so the only way that that sorry approach could ever work would have to be through Divine Intervention. Ironically, creationists keep trying to saddle evolution with their own stupid single-step selection which only serves to show that they have no understanding of evolution at all. Chemistry is chemistry. The gods do not interfere with that, nor with any other aspect of science. That is why science (and mathematics) works regardless of which gods you pray to. I really do wish, though, that you fucking willfully stupid creationists will one day finally pull your collective heads out and wake up.
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