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Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
Anyway, I like teaching biologists the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. Really? You don't act like you like it, and you're not very good at it.
Prof Bullshitter writes: Why so few transitional fossils (are there really any?) Ah, now I understand why you're such a crappy teacher, it's all bullshit.
Prof Bullshitter writes: when it takes a billion replications for each transitional adaptational step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments? So misrepresenting the probability of beneficial mutations in two experiments on bacteria are your only lessons? You seem to think those two experiments represent everything there is to learn about biological evolution. You say that each of those mutations can only happen AFTER 1 billion replications and then the next mutation has to wait for ANOTHER billion replications and so on. I see now why most of the world's biologists don't pay any attention to you. We know you're flattered to have gotten the email from Percy, but we all got it, he was just testing that function.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
This message is a response to Percy, now nwr. Sorry Percy, I clicked the wrong reply button.
Kleinman:Do you mean like P(Ac)=((1-P(BeneficialA)mu)^n)^nGA=(1-P(BeneficialA)mu)^n*nGA ? It looks so much prettier the say you format it. I notice you didn't put the greek letter "mu", you used "u". You should correct that. Kleinman:I'm not familiar with your last two jokes. But I do think you finally get that biological evolutionary competition is a conservation of energy problem, not a conservation of space problem. Kleinman:There's a lot of guessing and speculation that goes on in this topic and not very much systematic study and logic. I wasn't the first to describe biological competition as a conservation of energy process. The first time I encounter this idea was when I read this paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...33847/pdf/pnas00072-0402.pdf What I did was make this concept a bit simpler so that biologists and laymen could understand it. Kleinman:Lenski's equation [3] is not erroneous, it is just not the correct probability distribution equation for DNA evolutionary modification. Go back to the fundamentals of probability theory. Identify the random trial(s). In the random mutation process, the replication is the primary random trial with two possible outcomes, a mutation occurs or a mutation doesn't occur. There is a second random trial that also occurs in this process and that is the mutation itself which has possible outcomes of base substitutions, insertions, deletions, double insertions... Different probability distributions have a lot of similarities. For example, the Poisson distribution is a limiting case for the binomial distribution. Lenski might be able to get his exponential distribution to approximately fit his data but I think it is much more instructive to derive the correct distribution function(s) if you are able to. BTW, if Lenski and his team were to derive an "at least one" probability equation, it would be very similar to the one I derived. One last point, the DNA evolutionary process is actually a Markov random walk process. I derived a slightly different Markov model than biologists use. My model is a non-stationary non-equilibrium model which gives a good prediction of the distribution of variants for the Kishony experiment. This model also gives results consistent with my binomial probability model. If you want to read that paper, you can find it here: The Kishony Mega-Plate Experiment, a Markov Process Edited by Kleinman, : Msg should be directed to Percy
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
... and I was the physicist who thought that 9 not being a prime number could be experimental error. My mathematician professor in a highly theoretical postgraduate computer science class (ie, very heavy on the math) told that joke to illustrate inductive reasoning in that an engineer had proven through inductive reasoning that all odd numbers are prime. He found that pattern with the numbers 1 through 13 at which point he took the inductive step. Yeah, 9 is not prime, but using his professional experience in statistical sampling he just ruled that one out as an outlier (there's always at least one in any sampling). Many universities accept foreign students, in part so that they can charge them full tuition. We had several foreign students in our class, mainly Chinese. During the telling of that joke they were frantically taking notes on it, not realizing that it was a joke (his joke-telling was typical of math teachers; just consider Tom Lehrer). Similarly a senior engineer at work told of when he had been sent to China (or maybe Taiwan) to train them on the system that the company had sold them and he started a break by writing something on the board about being back in 5 minutes; he returned to find them hotly debating what that inscription was supposed to mean.
I am so embarrassed about my wrong guess that you meant lebensraum. Are they maybe competing for poker chips? His inability to understand Lebensraum is indicative of far greater problems.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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Kleinman writes:
Really? You don't act like you like it, and you're not very good at it. Anyway, I like teaching biologists the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. His is a typical creationist empty boast. It looks so much like a creationist who boasted that he loves to teach evolutionists about their own theory, at which point he "taught us" that evolution is a snake laying an egg and a bird hatched out. Thirty years later that same creationist still knows nothing about what evolution is or how it works despite thirty years of his opponents repeatedly trying to explain it to him. You can always tell a creationist, but you just cannot tell him anything.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
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dwise1 writes: Tanypteryx writes:
Kleinman writes:
Really? You don't act like you like it, and you're not very good at it. Anyway, I like teaching biologists the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.His is a typical creationist empty boast. Yep, and belittling his students doesn't seem like a successful strategy for someone dedicated to teaching, more like trying to inflate his own ego. The world's biologists don't seem to be beating a path to his door. Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Not at all, but use whatever reference you want and give us the correct mathematical explanation for the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Kleinman writes:
But you're not doing that. You're just challenging us to explain it.
I like teaching biologists the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. Kleinman writes:
Y'see, that's where you lose all of your credibility, with silly creationist slogans like that. ... fossil tea-leaf reading courses."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:OK, why does combination therapy work for treating HIV when the virus can very rapidly evolve resistance to single-drug therapy? If you have trouble with that challenge, you can read the mathematical explanation here: The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance If you have trouble with the math, it is simply that HIV is no better at winning 3 lotteries than you are. You would have to buy about 1e15 tickets to win those 3 lotteries. Kleinman:Oh boy, ringo is going to explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments by reading fossil tea-leaves.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
There you go again, asking when you should be telling.
OK, why does combination therapy work for treating HIV when the virus can very rapidly evolve resistance to single-drug therapy? Kleinman writes:
I have trouble with a teacher who demands that I teach HIM. If you wanna teach, teach.
If you have trouble with that challenge.... Kleinman writes:
So all you have is repetition of the same childish slogans. Oh boy, ringo is going to explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments by reading fossil tea-leaves."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:OK, I'll tell you, but you have to promise that what happens on EVC Forum stays on EVC Forum. Kleinman:OK, the first thing I want to teach you is life is demanding. Kleinman:Haven't you heard about teaching by repetition? And I'll explain to you why fossil tea-leaf reading is a pseudoscience like phrenology, astrology, or perpetual motion machines. Adaptive evolution requires hundreds of millions or billions of replications for each mutational adaptation step. We know that from the Kishony and Lenski experiments. Therefore, for a reptile population to evolve into a bird population would create vast numbers of transitional forms. To get an idea of how vast that population would have to be, if it only required 200,000 mutations for such a genetic transformation, it would require about 200,000 billion replications. You should have transitional forms coming out of your ears.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
No deal. My motto is, If you have a secret, keep it. Don't expect me to keep your secrets for you. OK, I'll tell you, but you have to promise that what happens on EVC Forum stays on EVC Forum. If you wanna teach, teach.
Kleinman writes:
Mick Jagger taught me that you can't always get what you want.
OK, the first thing I want to teach you is life is demanding. Kleinman writes:
But you're not repeating a teaching. You're not teaching anything. You're just shouting slogans like, "Lock her up!"
Haven't you heard about teaching by repetition? Kleinman writes:
That ship has sailed. We have understood the fossil record for centuries. It was geologist Lyell's book that prompted Darwin to ask the questions that he answered on The Origin of Species. And I'll explain to you why fossil tea-leaf reading is a pseudoscience like phrenology, astrology, or perpetual motion machines. Don't waste our time trying to feed us a load of creationist crap.
Kleinman writes:
It did.
Therefore, for a reptile population to evolve into a bird population would create vast numbers of transitional forms. Kleinman writes:
You're ignoring the most important variable in your calculation: the rate of fossilization. It's pretty low. To get an idea of how vast that population would have to be, if it only required 200,000 mutations for such a genetic transformation, it would require about 200,000 billion replications. You should have transitional forms coming out of your ears. And by the way, we only really need one transitional fossil to show that there was a transition."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:I saw that one you got from China. Do you want to learn introductory probability theory? That's all you need to understand DNA evolution. I can teach you that.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
Kleinman writes:
Not at all, but use whatever reference you want and give us the correct mathematical explanation for the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
What does the Kishony and Lenski experiments have to do with the evolution of an arboreal ape into the the human species we see today?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:DNA evolution is DNA evolution.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
Kleinman writes:
DNA evolution is DNA evolution.
So how does the evolution of DNA in the Kishony and Lenski experiments apply to DNA evolution in human evolution?
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