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Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference?
We can do some back of the envelope calculations. There are about 40 million mutations that separate humans and chimps, so we can split those between the two for 20 million each. If we go with a high estimate of functional sequence at 10% of the human genome, then that puts us at 2 million mutations in functional sequence. If 10% of those are beneficial, then we are at 200,000 beneficial mutations. This would include indels, both large and small. These numbers exclude genomic arrangements which aren't massive in numbers, but could be important.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:So you are claiming that there are beneficial mutational differences between humans and chimps. So what are those mutational differences that enable humans to achieve a population over 7 billion while chimpanzees have only about 300,000 members in their population. What beneficial mutations give humans the ability to survive and reproduce in the way of life of this species? Kleinman:Is my assumption that there are more than 7 billion humans and only 300,000 chimps on earth wrong? You assume that humans and chimps come from a common ancestor. Why do humans have the reproductive fitness able to achieve a population of greater than 7 billion while chimpanzees have only achieved a population of 300,000? What beneficial mutations give humans this improvement in reproductive fitness?
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes:
Try something simpler like applying conservation of energy to the Lenski experiment. What are the energy sources available to the bacteria? Ultimately, the energy source is the fusion of hydrogen and helium in the Sun. Energetic photons are released by the Sun due to fusion, those energetic particles drive the formation of sugars and higher energy metabolites in plants, and those energy containing molecules (e.g. glucose and citrate) are fed to the bacteria.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes:
So you are claiming that there are beneficial mutational differences between humans and chimps.
How else would you explain the physical differences between chimps and humans? If our physical differences are not due to differences in the sequence of our genomes then please tell us what causes those physical differences.
What beneficial mutations give humans the ability to survive and reproduce in the way of life of this species?
They are among the 40 million differences between our genomes.
You assume that humans and chimps come from a common ancestor. We conclude that humans and chimps share a common ancestor because of mountains of evidence.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available. Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available. Do you believe it takes energy to replicate? E. coli won't replicate in warm distilled water, or even warm saline. We all agree that it takes energy to reproduce. What are you on about?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
I just did a quick Google and it only mentioned glucose. That's all I needed to suggest that the question is silly.
I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available. Kleinman writes:
Evolution happens at the population level. You seem to be thinking on the wrong scale. Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Does every human on earth today have these 200,000 beneficial mutations?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Do you think that fusion energy could be used directly in Lenski experiment? Do you think that E Coli can do photosynthesis?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Biological evolutionary competition (Darwinian competition) is a conservation of energy (first law of thermodynamics) process. I wrote a short paper that explains it in more detail, you can read it here: The Physics of Darwinian Evolution
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Try doing a search using "Lenski experiment citrate" Kleinman:Even Taq realizes that E Coli won't replicate in distilled water or even saline solution. They need energy in a form that they can metabolize.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
Duh. Even Taq realizes that E Coli won't replicate in distilled water or even saline solution. They need energy in a form that they can metabolize. But what has replication at the cellular level got to do with evolution?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
So you are claiming that there are beneficial mutational differences between humans and chimps. Your mistake is to treat "beneficial" as an absolute. It isn't. What is beneficial is relative to the population.
Why do humans have the reproductive fitness able to achieve a population of greater than 7 billion while chimpanzees have only achieved a population of 300,000? Likewise, you are treating "fitness" as an absolute. It isn't. Again, it is relative to the population.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:That's an appropriate question. Replication (in particular replication of the genome) gives the possibility of a mutation. That is a second law of thermodynamics process that operates as a Markov chain random walk. I give a simple explanation of how that works in this paper: The Physics of Darwinian Evolution Anything that slows replication such as biological competition will slow that random walk. The occurrence of a reasonable probability of an adaptive mutation occurring somewhere in a population takes lots of replicatiions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
*shrug* The occurrence of a reasonable probability of an adaptive mutation occurring somewhere in a population takes lots of replicatiions. But evolution does happen. So the rate of mutation doesn't seem to be significant."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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