Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 69 (9101 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: sensei
Upcoming Birthdays: Tusko
Post Volume: Total: 904,369 Year: 1,250/14,231 Month: 174/1,076 Week: 283/234 Day: 49/86 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8105
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 91 of 2806 (898163)
09-19-2022 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Kleinman
09-19-2022 8:34 PM


Re: First
Do you now understand how ridiculous your question is?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 8:34 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 9:12 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 92 of 2806 (898164)
09-19-2022 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Theodoric
09-19-2022 8:49 PM


Re: First
Theodoric:
Do you now understand how ridiculous your question is?
Do you think that humans and chimpanzees have the same population size?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 8:49 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 9:25 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8105
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 93 of 2806 (898165)
09-19-2022 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Kleinman
09-19-2022 9:12 PM


Re: First
Did I say anything like that? Why would you ask that unless you were trolling?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 9:12 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 9:30 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 100 by dwise1, posted 09-20-2022 2:45 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 94 of 2806 (898166)
09-19-2022 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Theodoric
09-19-2022 9:25 PM


Re: First
Theodoric:
Did I say anything like that? Why would you ask that unless you were trolling?
How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference? PaulK says all you have to do is add them up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 9:25 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by nwr, posted 09-19-2022 9:56 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 97 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 10:01 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 11:53 AM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20832
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 95 of 2806 (898167)
09-19-2022 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Kleinman
09-19-2022 2:43 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
So try applying that principle to biological evolutionary competition and see what you get.
Living things are open systems (plenty of energy coming in), so conservation isn't really relevant.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 2:43 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by dwise1, posted 09-20-2022 2:39 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 101 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:10 AM ringo has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6237
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 96 of 2806 (898168)
09-19-2022 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Kleinman
09-19-2022 9:30 PM


Apples and oranges
How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference?
This is like asking how many oranges there are in a basket of apples.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 9:30 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:12 AM nwr has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8105
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 97 of 2806 (898169)
09-19-2022 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Kleinman
09-19-2022 9:30 PM


Re: First
I don't see where he said anything like this.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 9:30 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 98 of 2806 (898171)
09-20-2022 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Kleinman
09-19-2022 7:34 PM


Re: Video not available
quote:
So, how many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees have you counted?
This is a silly question. Not least because it is incredibly vague.
If you mean the number of beneficial mutations that have fixed since the common ancestor in each lineage I don’t know of a good way to tell. The number of mutations might be estimated, some might be identifiable as beneficial, but I doubt that all would be.
Population size generates more mutations but it also makes it harder to fix them - and the current human advantage there would have been a lot less even 1000 years ago.
Anyway, it hardly matters. Are you going to explain why microevolutionary events cannot add up to macroevolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 7:34 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:14 AM PaulK has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5561
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 99 of 2806 (898172)
09-20-2022 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
09-19-2022 9:50 PM


Re: Video not available
Living things are open systems (plenty of energy coming in), so conservation isn't really relevant.
I also could see him maneuvering towards that old creationist canard, "evolution violates thermodynamics".
A basic problem with that one is that evolution is primarily just the net result of life doing what life naturally does. So if evolution is supposed to violate thermodynamics, then so does life so, according to creationists, life should be impossible. And yet ... there it is!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 9:50 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5561
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 100 of 2806 (898173)
09-20-2022 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Theodoric
09-19-2022 9:25 PM


Re: First
Did I say anything like that? Why would you ask that unless you were trolling?
He's a creationist.
Creationists don't understand what they're talking about, but rather they mainly are just following a script. When I was hanging out with the Jesus Freaks circa 1970 I saw a lot of those scripts ... and my own experience with creationists ever since then confirms that they are still using those same old stupid scripts. The only difference is that the IDiot scripts are a lot fancier and filled with more fancy terminology and references to obscure math, the better to deceive us with. ID is still nothing but bullshit, but it's a higher grade of bullshit than the old standard creationist stuff. Makes it harder to wash away with the hose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 9:25 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 101 of 2806 (898180)
09-20-2022 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
09-19-2022 9:50 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
So try applying that principle to biological evolutionary competition and see what you get.
Ringo:
Living things are open systems (plenty of energy coming in), so conservation isn't really relevant.

You are being sloppy in your physics. The energy has to be useful to the replicator otherwise the Sahara Desert and the inside of a volcano would be overwhelmed with living things. Try something simpler like applying conservation of energy to the Lenski experiment. What are the energy sources available to the bacteria?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 9:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 11:47 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 108 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:01 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 102 of 2806 (898181)
09-20-2022 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by nwr
09-19-2022 9:56 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
Kleinman:
How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference?
nwr:
This is like asking how many oranges there are in a basket of apples.

Are you implying that there are no beneficial mutations in all the genetic differences between humans and chimps? If so, why are there over 7 billion humans and only about 300,000 chimps on earth? Why do humans have greater reproductive fitness than chimps in this biological evolutionary competition?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by nwr, posted 09-19-2022 9:56 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by nwr, posted 09-20-2022 11:13 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 103 of 2806 (898182)
09-20-2022 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by PaulK
09-20-2022 12:19 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
So, how many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees have you counted?
PaulK:
This is a silly question. Not least because it is incredibly vague.
If you mean the number of beneficial mutations that have fixed since the common ancestor in each lineage I don’t know of a good way to tell. The number of mutations might be estimated, some might be identifiable as beneficial, but I doubt that all would be.

Population size generates more mutations but it also makes it harder to fix them - and the current human advantage there would have been a lot less even 1000 years ago.

Anyway, it hardly matters. Are you going to explain why microevolutionary events cannot add up to macroevolution?

Perhaps it is silly to ask you a question you can't answer. Try this one, how many beneficial mutations are occurring in the Kishony experiment and how many of these beneficial mutations are fixed in the population of that experiment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2022 12:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2022 1:37 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6237
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 104 of 2806 (898183)
09-20-2022 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 9:12 AM


Re: Apples and oranges
Are you implying that there are no beneficial mutations in all the genetic differences between humans and chimps?
No. Rather, I am saying that the comparison is meaningless. What is beneficial for a human might not be beneficial for a chimp. What is beneficial is a relative evaluation, depending on the way of life of the species where the mutation shows up. Chimps and humans have different ways of living. And, by the way, those differences evolved.
If so, why are there over 7 billion humans and only about 300,000 chimps on earth?
That's not relevant to anything. You are making false assumptions about evolution. Yes, humans make for better humans than would chimps. But chimps make for better chimps than would humans. You cannot directly compare them like that.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:12 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:01 PM nwr has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20832
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 105 of 2806 (898184)
09-20-2022 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 9:10 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
The energy has to be useful to the replicator...
It is.
Kleinman writes:
... otherwise the Sahara Desert and the inside of a volcano would be overwhelmed with living things.
They are.
Kleinman writes:
What are the energy sources available to the bacteria?
Glucose.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:10 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:05 PM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2023