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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 84 of 2926 (898140)
09-19-2022 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
09-19-2022 11:43 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
At least you have some idea of what a conservation principle is.
ringo:
I didn't say anything about conservation principles. I was suggesting a reason for the bullshit coming out of you: bullshit in (from creationist sources), bullshit out.

Didn't they teach you in your physics class (perhaps you didn't take one) that you compute a conservation principle by what goes in must come out or stays inside? So try applying that principle to biological evolutionary competition and see what you get.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 9:50 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 86 of 2926 (898146)
09-19-2022 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by PaulK
09-19-2022 3:08 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
As for recombination reducing cycles, it doesn't when producing adaptive alleles.
PaulK:
It obviously does away with the need to wait until the population with the first beneficial mutation reaches sufficient size,

Sure, that's why they use combination herbicides and pesticides in agriculture.
Kleinman:
Let's put this into the context of a real situation. One farmer uses a herbicide on his field that selects for allele A and a different farmer uses a different herbicide on a different field that selects for allele B.
PaulK:
This looks like an artificial example which would produce more heat than light.

OK, so you formulate what you think is a realistic example and show us how to do the math of random recombination.
Kleinman:
Read this paper by LenskI
PaulK:
I should point out that fitness is relative, which will affect the calculation. As Lenski points out, the more fit the population, the less effect a beneficial mutation is likely to have.

You claimed that the sequence of adaptive mutations and fitness gain in the Lenski experiment doesn't decline over time. In Lenski's published words, he says they do.
Kleinman:
The only numbers you need to use are the mutation rate and population size
PaulK:
Wrong. You would need to know the mutation rate and the proportion of beneficial mutations.

I could have worded that better. It is the size of the population with would benefit from the particular mutation. The total population size or proportion of beneficial mutations does not affect that probability.
Kleinman:
The reason why microevolutionary events don't add is they random events. You must compute the joint probability of random events occurring using multiplication, not addition
PaulK:
That’s just silly. Events are not probabilities. If you toss a coin continually adding the times it comes up heads, how would you react to somebody who said “the reason Heads don’t add is they are random events. You must compute the probability of random events occurring using multiplication, not addition.”?

So you think that joint random events are mutually exclusive events? What happens when the probability of the first adaptive mutation occurring is 0.98 and the probability of the second adaptive mutation occurring is 0.97? Is the probability of those two events occuring 1.95?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by PaulK, posted 09-19-2022 3:08 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 09-19-2022 3:46 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 88 of 2926 (898157)
09-19-2022 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by PaulK
09-19-2022 3:46 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
What happens when the probability of the first adaptive mutation occurring is 0.98 and the probability of the second adaptive mutation occurring is 0.97? Is the probability of those two events occuring 1.95
PaulK:
Don’t be silly. I’m saying that if both happen you have two beneficial mutations. That’s what it means to count.

Now, are you going to explain why a sequence of microevolutionary events can’t add up to macroevolution?

So, how many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees have you counted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 09-19-2022 3:46 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 7:45 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2022 12:19 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 90 of 2926 (898161)
09-19-2022 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Theodoric
09-19-2022 7:45 PM


Re: First
Theodoric:
Can you define a beneficial mutation?
That's a reasonable question.
A beneficial mutation is a mutation that gives improve reproductive fitness to that variant with respect to related variants without that particular mutation. This is manifested by the greater population size of that variant with that beneficial mutation than those related variants without that beneficial mutation. A neutral mutation does not change the reproductive fitness of the particular variant with respect to those related variants without that neutral mutation. And a detrimental mutation reduces the reproductive fitness of those variants with that detrimental mutation with respects to those related variants without that detrimental mutation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 7:45 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 8:49 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 92 of 2926 (898164)
09-19-2022 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Theodoric
09-19-2022 8:49 PM


Re: First
Theodoric:
Do you now understand how ridiculous your question is?
Do you think that humans and chimpanzees have the same population size?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 8:49 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 9:25 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 94 of 2926 (898166)
09-19-2022 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Theodoric
09-19-2022 9:25 PM


Re: First
Theodoric:
Did I say anything like that? Why would you ask that unless you were trolling?
How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference? PaulK says all you have to do is add them up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 9:25 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by nwr, posted 09-19-2022 9:56 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 97 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2022 10:01 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 11:53 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 101 of 2926 (898180)
09-20-2022 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
09-19-2022 9:50 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
So try applying that principle to biological evolutionary competition and see what you get.
Ringo:
Living things are open systems (plenty of energy coming in), so conservation isn't really relevant.

You are being sloppy in your physics. The energy has to be useful to the replicator otherwise the Sahara Desert and the inside of a volcano would be overwhelmed with living things. Try something simpler like applying conservation of energy to the Lenski experiment. What are the energy sources available to the bacteria?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 9:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 11:47 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 108 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:01 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 102 of 2926 (898181)
09-20-2022 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by nwr
09-19-2022 9:56 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
Kleinman:
How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference?
nwr:
This is like asking how many oranges there are in a basket of apples.

Are you implying that there are no beneficial mutations in all the genetic differences between humans and chimps? If so, why are there over 7 billion humans and only about 300,000 chimps on earth? Why do humans have greater reproductive fitness than chimps in this biological evolutionary competition?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by nwr, posted 09-19-2022 9:56 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by nwr, posted 09-20-2022 11:13 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 103 of 2926 (898182)
09-20-2022 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by PaulK
09-20-2022 12:19 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
So, how many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees have you counted?
PaulK:
This is a silly question. Not least because it is incredibly vague.
If you mean the number of beneficial mutations that have fixed since the common ancestor in each lineage I don’t know of a good way to tell. The number of mutations might be estimated, some might be identifiable as beneficial, but I doubt that all would be.

Population size generates more mutations but it also makes it harder to fix them - and the current human advantage there would have been a lot less even 1000 years ago.

Anyway, it hardly matters. Are you going to explain why microevolutionary events cannot add up to macroevolution?

Perhaps it is silly to ask you a question you can't answer. Try this one, how many beneficial mutations are occurring in the Kishony experiment and how many of these beneficial mutations are fixed in the population of that experiment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2022 12:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2022 1:37 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 107 of 2926 (898186)
09-20-2022 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by nwr
09-20-2022 11:13 AM


Re: Apples and oranges
Kleinman:
Are you implying that there are no beneficial mutations in all the genetic differences between humans and chimps?
nwr:
No. Rather, I am saying that the comparison is meaningless. What is beneficial for a human might not be beneficial for a chimp. What is beneficial is a relative evaluation, depending on the way of life of the species where the mutation shows up. Chimps and humans have different ways of living. And, by the way, those differences evolved.

So you are claiming that there are beneficial mutational differences between humans and chimps. So what are those mutational differences that enable humans to achieve a population over 7 billion while chimpanzees have only about 300,000 members in their population. What beneficial mutations give humans the ability to survive and reproduce in the way of life of this species?
Kleinman:
If so, why are there over 7 billion humans and only about 300,000 chimps on earth?
nwr:
That's not relevant to anything. You are making false assumptions about evolution. Yes, humans make for better humans than would chimps. But chimps make for better chimps than would humans. You cannot directly compare them like that.

Is my assumption that there are more than 7 billion humans and only 300,000 chimps on earth wrong? You assume that humans and chimps come from a common ancestor. Why do humans have the reproductive fitness able to achieve a population of greater than 7 billion while chimpanzees have only achieved a population of 300,000? What beneficial mutations give humans this improvement in reproductive fitness?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by nwr, posted 09-20-2022 11:13 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:04 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 118 by nwr, posted 09-20-2022 12:50 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 110 of 2926 (898189)
09-20-2022 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
09-20-2022 11:47 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
What are the energy sources available to the bacteria?
Ringo:
Glucose

I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available.
Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 11:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:10 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 12:16 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 113 of 2926 (898192)
09-20-2022 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Taq
09-20-2022 11:53 AM


Re: First
Kleinman:
How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference?
Taq:
We can do some back of the envelope calculations. There are about 40 million mutations that separate humans and chimps, so we can split those between the two for 20 million each.

If we go with a high estimate of functional sequence at 10% of the human genome, then that puts us at 2 million mutations in functional sequence. If 10% of those are beneficial, then we are at 200,000 beneficial mutations. This would include indels, both large and small. These numbers exclude genomic arrangements which aren't massive in numbers, but could be important.

Does every human on earth today have these 200,000 beneficial mutations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 11:53 AM Taq has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 114 of 2926 (898193)
09-20-2022 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Taq
09-20-2022 12:01 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Try something simpler like applying conservation of energy to the Lenski experiment. What are the energy sources available to the bacteria?
Taq:
Ultimately, the energy source is the fusion of hydrogen and helium in the Sun. Energetic photons are released by the Sun due to fusion, those energetic particles drive the formation of sugars and higher energy metabolites in plants, and those energy containing molecules (e.g. glucose and citrate) are fed to the bacteria.

Do you think that fusion energy could be used directly in Lenski experiment? Do you think that E Coli can do photosynthesis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:01 PM Taq has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 115 of 2926 (898194)
09-20-2022 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Taq
09-20-2022 12:10 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available.

Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?
Taq:
E. coli won't replicate in warm distilled water, or even warm saline.

We all agree that it takes energy to reproduce. What are you on about?

Biological evolutionary competition (Darwinian competition) is a conservation of energy (first law of thermodynamics) process. I wrote a short paper that explains it in more detail, you can read it here:
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:10 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 1:53 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 116 of 2926 (898195)
09-20-2022 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ringo
09-20-2022 12:16 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available.
ringo:
I just did a quick Google and it only mentioned glucose. That's all I needed to suggest that the question is silly.

Try doing a search using "Lenski experiment citrate"
Kleinman:
Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?
ringo:
Evolution happens at the population level. You seem to be thinking on the wrong scale.

Even Taq realizes that E Coli won't replicate in distilled water or even saline solution. They need energy in a form that they can metabolize.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 12:42 PM Kleinman has replied

  
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