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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
We simply disagree ... You can’t disagree. Percy did not voice an opinion. He stated a known fact. If you dispute the fact then you must show the fact wrong. You cannot just assert that it is wrong or just disagree with what it shows. Percy’s post is fact. "The writings that did survive until today are the testimonies of the early Christian churches of the Jewish diaspora which had never had any contact with Jesus and had no reliable source of information about him." You have to deal with facts. You cannot just disagree and ignore them.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Percy writes: That is actually changing...<etc. and so forth for a couple paragraphs...> Wikipedia on Richard Bauckham: So much for eyewitnesses. No, the consensus isn't changing. It can only change if new evidence of eyewitnesses comes to light. Without that you've just got endless discussion of different viewpoints, which has been the situation for centuries.
However, neither of us will convince the other and it is entirely off topic anyway. But the fact remains that you have no evidence. You can't convince me of anything without evidence. And I've already convinced you that you have no evidence. You've conceded the point a number of times. Percy writes: Well ya, bar Giora led a revolt that had some early success but ultimately wound up with the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus' idea of revolution didn't involve violence. It wouldn't be seen as noteworthy at the time. History records a great deal about Simon bar Giora, but of Jesus, nothing. So miracles and resurrections aren't noteworthy in 30 AD, but by 100 AD they are? You're actually describing the exact process of mythology where the details grow over time. Your own critical thinking should come into play and recognize that Papias's and Polycarp's claims of interviewing eyewitnessesn more than 70 years after the events is unlikely in the extreme. Why doesn't it? Percy writes:
Paul, an itinerant preacher who founded churches in the Jewish diaspora, created the religion that eventually became Christianity. There is no way of knowing whether he based Jesus upon a real person, a composite of real persons, or made him up out of whole cloth, but that the gospels are works of fiction, just like the Bhagavad Gita, the Quran and the Book of Mormon, there can be no doubt.If you say so. There are numerous very bright, very well educated people in this world who would disagree, but you claim there is no doubt. But you agree with me that all these books are works of fiction, except for one. You're just like all atheists, except that you disagree with them about one religion. Percy writes: We simply disagree, and I can present nothing that you won't dispute. The writings that did survive until today are the testimonies of the early Christian churches of the Jewish diaspora which had never had any contact with Jesus and had no reliable source of information about him. Are you sure we disagree? I'm sure we both believe the gospels were produced by the early Christian churches that Paul founded in the Jewish diaspora. And that they couldn't have had any contact with Jesus since Paul didn't start founding churches until after Jesus's death. And that their only source of information was secondhand. It is not a case that I'm disputing everything you claim. I'm just pointing out that you're making very exaggerated claims about having evidence. You can't seem to decide whether you have evidence or not. You concede you have no evidence until someone challenges a cherished belief, such as that Jesus existed, and then suddenly you're arguing again that you do too have evidence. You don't. If there were real evidence then most people would accept Christianity and the other religions would be poor shadows of their current selves. Why is it so important to you that your faith have evidence? If it had evidence would it still be faith? Your search for evidence reminds me of a 1972 book by Irving Wallace called The Word about the discovery of the Gospel of James, brother of Jesus. Researchers authenticate it and the entire world converts to Christianity. --Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy addressing GDR writes: That one sentence jumped out and grabbed me! I was waiting for you to say something intelligent that I could relate to. And you did!
Why is it so important to you that your faith has evidence? If it had evidence would it still be faith? Percy addressing GDR writes: Both evidence-based skeptics and believers have holdouts. If they actually found objective evidence that Jesus existed, there would still be many people refusing to accept Him. Even if they validated that he lived after the crucifixion. Your search for evidence reminds me of a 1972 book by Irving Wallace called The Word about the discovery of the Gospel of James, brother of Jesus. Researchers authenticate it and the entire world converts to Christianity. Edited by Phat, . "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: If they actually found objective evidence that Jesus existed, there would still be many people refusing to accept Him. Even if they validated that he lived after the crucifixion. If conclusive evidence were uncovered that Jesus not only existed but that the events recorded in the gospels really happened, including the resurrection, then the only people denying it would be flat-earther/heliocentrism-denier types. --Percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I bet you can't find any on this forum. Idiots like candle2 and Dredge might agree with you. If they actually found objective evidence that Jesus existed, there would still be many people refusing to accept Him."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: What is wrong with you? Everyone understands having limited time and not being able to reply to everything. But you can't pretend the arguments you didn't respond to never happened, and that's what you're doing when you make an argument yet again as if there had never been any rebuttals. How do you not see how dishonest this is? "Oh, I'm short of time, therefore any mistreatments of people I'm debating with are okay." Stop making excuses for yourself and blaming your difficulties on others. You're bringing this on yourself. There's no timetable here, no schedule. Take your time and do right by people. It would be the Christian thing to do. Frankly, I don't see that I am having difficulties except I am having to discuss this with multiple individuals and it takes time which I don't always have. How about being just a tad reasonable. If you don't think that I have a place on your forum , then tell me and I'll disappear. Not every post requires a response. The only evidence that you and others allow is scientific evidence. I have agreed there is no scientific evidence but we can draw subjective conclusions from what we observe about the world and our existence. None of you accept that. I get it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: The point IMHO to that we have hearts that love sacrificially which is not dependent on any particular spiritual belief. However, I contend from my own experience that spiritual belief can help to move hearts in that direction. IMHO Christianity provides me with faith that this world does give us meaning and purpose in that life matters, and good stewardship of the world matters, well beyond the idea of being in good with God when we die. If we are only looking to make things netter for ourselves in this life or the next then we have missed the point. Can you say something that is an actual response to what I said about the material world having a real impact while the spiritual world can be completely ignored without consequence?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: Firstly there is no physical evidence that I know of. However, as an observation, we all have things that we consider right or wrong and if God exists,and as our choice of right and wrong seems to matter in the overall scheme of things, The I suggest that indicates that He does care.
Let's grant that God exists.Why not consider that we aren't a part of God's plan at all? Maybe God doesn't even know we're here? Perhaps we're so insignificant, and such a tiny by-product that we seem no more than a speck of dust landing in the corner of an attic no one ever enters? After all, everything we actually know of the universe implies it's been created to make stars. Not people. Other than humanity's desire to have questions answered... can you name a single thing that we know about reality (as well as we can know anything... with evidence...) that reasonably indicates that God "bothered" to bring us into existence? Stile writes: All can I really say that if God bothered to bring us into existence, (even if all that He did was to introduce consciousness into the world), then it makes sense that He wouldn't do it without some purpose in mind.
"IF" God actually did bother to bring us into existence, purposefully, then yes. This is certainly an interesting question. At least on a curiosity level if nothing else.But going from "God exists" to "God intended to create humans with a purpose" seems a really big jump - given what we've been able to learn about the universe. Stile writes: I am very concerned with truth, realizing full well that it is a belief, and not absolute knowledge.
Are you sure you're "concerned with truth?"You seem more concerned with protecting your beliefs and letting yourself feel like your beliefs are true rather than searching for truth itself. Stile writes: Wouldn't being concerned with truth include:-looking at the universe the way it is -understanding how vast the universe is and how small/insignificant humans are within it -understanding how no part of the universe shows us any intervention from any "God" in any way -if a God exists and kicked off the universe, and it ended up this way... was His aim off and He "got lucky" that a tiny, immeasurably small portion of His universe was able to support humans as He desired? -or is it more likely that if a God exists and kicked off this universe... that His aim was spot-on and lots and lots and lots of stars exist - creating beauty for Him beyond anything a human is capable of... and humanity is just something that needs to be endured within a tiny, immeasurably small portion of the canvas God painted? One of those is closer to being "concerned with truth" (as it is understood as best we can today, anyway.) The other is closer to being "concerned with protecting personal beliefs/feelings" (regardless of our best attempts to ascertain the truth of this universe.) The point is... if you actually are concerned with truth... why not be honest about saying "Yeah, well, it certainly appears that God isn't involved in this world... and all evidence seems to point that way... I just hope it's wrong because I would personally prefer a universe where I'm a direct, intended product of a creator God." IMHO the key involves consciousness. Writers on this forum, and pretty much stated as fact, say the consciousness simply evolved as part of the evolutionary process. What is the physical evidence of that. Consciousness exists. Here is something from Scientific American. quote:I am not knowledgeable enough to argue either for or against that but it does give a different POV to what gets expressed here. Also it appears to me that as we can see in the "double split experiment" that observation and/or measurement, (that comes from consciousness), affect the material and not the other way around.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
IMHO Christianity provides me with faith that this world does give us meaning and purpose in that life matters, and good stewardship of the world matters, well beyond the idea of being in good with God when we die. If we are only looking to make things better for ourselves in this life or the next then we have missed the point. If someone is going to be a religious nutjob then I guess defining a ‘nice’ religion is better than most alternatives. If your GDR Cult of Christian Love gets to Phoenix I’ll come visit. I won’t laugh at the love parts. The rest, however …Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Also it appears to me that as we can see in the "double split experiment" that observation and/or measurement, (that comes from consciousness), affect the material and not the other way around. This is way way old PopSci misunderstanding. Change your sources. See Sean Carroll. Consciousness has nothing to do with measurement.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: Well I can't have done any critical analysis because I don't agree with you. What critical analysis have you done. I read the over 600 pages of Richard Backhams's book "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses. Of course you simply dismiss him because he doesn't agree with. Here is a brief bio on the man.
But you, by your own admission, also have no evidence yet have reached plenty of conclusions. How can that be? The answer is that though you keep saying you have no evidence, you don't really believe it. You think the Bible and the Patristic Fathers and Papias and Polycarp and Tacitus are so on are all evidence. It seems that if someone writes something supportive of your viewpoints you blindly accept it without subjecting it to critical analysis.quote: I have also read others on the subject. The objections that were raised were from roughly a couple of centuries ago in an effort to discredit the Gospels. It was called "form criticism". Here is a wiki article on it. Form CriticismHere is one quote from that site. quote: The form critics completely disregarded the external evidence and relied on simply looking at the quality of the Greek and some other observations from the content. I went over all of the rationale and could not find anything that supported Rudolf Bultman's view that couldn't also be used to argue for the contrary position.However, you know more about it than those who have spent their whole adult life studying it. I'd venture to say that I have done far more in the way of critical analysis than you have. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
nwr writes:
I'm like your wife. I have one but only use it as a last resort to get something. That would be my attitude. However, some people just do not like e-books. My wife is such a person. She has her own kindle but almost never uses it. Maybe GDR is like that.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes:
Well then Christianity is theoretical as there is not sufficient consensus as there is insufficient evidence to allow a consensus to be formed. As some scientists believe string theory to be accurate many theologians believe that basic Christianity represents accurately the the nature of a deity.
There are actually a variety of acceptable terminologies. You could call string theory a theory which is not yet accepted because a consensus has not formed around it. Or you could deem the term "string theory" a misnomer since it is actually just a hypothesis. Or you could say that string theory remains in the realm of the theoretical, which is another way of saying that there's insufficient evidence for a consensus to form. Percy writes: Sure I'm fine with that. They are looking for different answers. One is to discover material properties and how things work and the other is belief about why things are the way they are.
You keep seeking a wording favorable to your beliefs. The proper way to say this is that science studies the real world, while religion is about spiritual beliefs. There are not two different forms of knowledge. There's just knowledge. You can have knowledge of the physical properties of water, or knowledge of the story of Jesus as told by Mark. They're knowledge of different things, but they're not different forms of knowledge. Percy writes: Sure, but if a very large percentage of the population believed that fire breathing dragons existed, then maybe it would be worth considering.
Defining knowledge can be confusing. Do I know what a fire-breathing dragon is? Of course I do. Is there any such thing as a fire-breathing dragon? Of course there isn't. Then how can I know what a fire-breathing dragon is if they don't exist? Percy writes: Not every post requires a response. If you have followed what I've responded to I go through them in order. Some posts though are simply comments or simple "put downs" that don't call for an account. Or in a couple of cases there are those who claim I'm lying and so I'm not interested in maintaining a discussion with them.
How many times do I have to say this? I know, I get it, you're short of time and you're drawing many responses, but that doesn't make it okay that your forcing people to remake from scratch arguments they made earlier and that you ignored/didn't have time for. Percy writes: Well, I'd suggest that there are numerous things that can be observed for which we can't absolutely say as to whether they are just nothing but absolute processes or not. As I said earlier we can roll a die that comes up 3. WE can absolutely know that it is a 3, (and personally I do believe that 3 is the reuslt of nothing but natural processes), but we can't claim absolutely that their wasn't divine interference. No, wrong again. One person failing to find non-natural processes is subjective. Two people failing is subjective. Even a thousand people failing is subjective. But 107 billion people have ever lived, and none have ever found evidence of non-natural processes. That's about as objective a finding as you can get.Maybe science will ultimately discover a process that will tell us how abiogenesis occurred. However we won't know if there was outside interference or not. Same thing with consciousness. Percy writes: I have not said that non-natural processes must exist. I do maintain that the fact that natural processes exist, implies a designer. Your argument is that because natural processes exist that therefore non-natural processes must exist. Why does this make sense to you? He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: That is energy, actual physical photons, and it will obey the commands of the universe.GDR writes: The commands of the universe. Doesn't a command require an intelligence?Percy writes: That wasn't my point. It was just that AZP claimed that it was following the laws of the universe which sounded to me a bit like making a deity of the "laws of the universe', now however after a little thought, I'd like to withdraw the comment. But given other things you've said, I expect that your position is that photons following the laws of the universe is evidence of non-natural photons, or at least of non-natural somethings. I don't think anyone here follows your logic and finds it opaque. I think the reason no one can follow your logic is that you're using a circular argument while leaving out one crucial part that would close the circle: you assume the existence of God. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: Call it what you like, but we now have conscious sentient life, and in my personal opinion, it is more likely to have come from an intelligent source than a non-intelligent source.Percy writes: Yes, it's your personal opinion. That was my point. You're supposed to understand that personal opinions are meaningless. There are billions of people out there and all have various numbers of personal opinions not worth discussing. Views worth discussing are backed by evidence and argument that can be weighed and assessed. You can't just say you have evidence - you have to actually have it. Your lack of evidence means that your personal opinion that God exists is equal to someone else's personal opinion that the invisible spaghetti monster exists. The reason that belief that gods and spaghetti monsters exist does not come anywhere near in validity to the consensus that the Higgs Boson exists is because of evidence. This simple fact about the importance of evidence is not going to change. Without evidence you are unmoored. You are expressing your personal opinion Your evidence is that you can observe or have evidence for natural processes. I don't argue against natural processes. However, it is simply your personal opinion, as I understand it, is that these natural processes are only the result of chance, and maybe you are right. However, scientifically we cannot say that the natural causes are not the result of pre-existing intelligence or even if there is inference in the processes from such an intelligence. It is all personal opinion based on what we as individuals experience and observe. Incidentally. this thread has hardly ever related to my point in starting this thread which was simply to make the point that it isn't the name of the deity or the religion that is important but the understanding of the nature of a deity and what it means to how we conduct our lives that matters, in response to the question of which god do you choose.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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