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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 16346
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 886 of 887 (898093)
09-18-2022 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 885 by ringo
09-18-2022 2:59 PM


Gishing It Out With Ringo
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.
You've read the book.
ringo writes:
I have - and that's how I know that God Himself said, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
Dont Gish me, either. You claim God Himself said it, but when anything in the book supports your argument you focus on it. When I bring up the Book of Revelation and have a perfectly good counter-argument, you accuse me of Gishing it were true. I have said many many many times that God logically created the possibility of evil. If you disagree, explain to me how evil could manifest without an action by a human.
ringo writes:
And God also creates evil, as He said Himself ((Isaiah 45:7).
The book says He said it. Am I not allowed to elaborate or speculate on what a book written by humans means? Jesus said there is none good but God. Was He lying?
ringo writes:
But Jesus DOESN"T represent personified good. If He is God and God creates evil, then He represents good AND evil.
That's not what the book says. That's what ringo concludes.
ringo writes:
Goats - like you - PRETEND to follow Jesus - and Jesus sends them to everlasting fire.
Jesus and I have a give-and-take relationship. He commands. I question. If He ultimately sends me to hell, you will have won the argument. Note that the sheep and goats story has not yet happened. At this point, we don't know who the sheep are and who the goats are.
ringo writes:
It has nothing to do with whether or not Satan exists. God Himself SAID that He creates evil (Isaiah 45:7). There is no need for any other source of evil.
If God were both good and evil, as your lame interpretation of His character suggests, He would have plainly said "I AM good and evil. I AM complete." In which case, humans are all let off the hook for being responsible for what they do, since it is all up to God anyway.
ringo writes:
I threw away each hook, line, and sinker - of your theology, not of the Bible - individually, because they're individually nonsense.
Well, I can't do the same to you. You defend a book full of characters you doubt even exist. And don't go trotting out your argument that Long John Silver or Bilbo Baggins don't exist and yet are themselves in books. It too is a lame argument. You can't judge someone by a book that you think was written by humans.
Phat writes:
You can throw them ALL away, including the One. But in your head, you gotta serve somebody!
Maybe I serve Bob Dylan.
Well he is Jewish, so one messiah is as good as another.
Phat writes:
Also I might again mention the book of revelation.
ringo writes:
What has that got to do with what we're talking about?
This started out with you saying, and I quote:
quote:
Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.
It is you who are Gishing. You have become like jar--trying to argue by reframing an argument to favor your points. In fact, I think you have one scripture for the OT, Isaiah 45:7, and one scripture for the NT, Matthew 25.
ringo writes:
I have answered your points and I expect a response to my answers.
And I expect you to address the scriptures I quoted from Revelation and kindly explain why I'm wrong about a Beast who does not yet exist and a Jesus who eternally does.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by ringo, posted 09-18-2022 2:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 887 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 1:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19995
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 887 of 887 (898127)
09-19-2022 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by Phat
09-18-2022 4:47 PM


Re: Gishing It Out With Ringo
Phat writes:
Dont Gish me, either.
I didn't Gish you. I gave a direct response. That's the opposite of Gish.
Phat writes:
You claim God Himself said it, but when anything in the book supports your argument you focus on it.
The "but" in that sentence shouldn't be there.
Phat writes:
When I bring up the Book of Revelation and have a perfectly good counter-argument, you accuse me of Gishing it were true.
Because you can't use one book to negate another. If you're going to use any book of the Bible as a reference, you're stuck with the others too. Your Gish-gallop completely ignored what i said.
Phat writes:
I have said many many many times that God logically created the possibility of evil.
And I have explained many, many, many times why that is wrong: creating the possibility of evil is exactly the same as creating evil. If He digs a tiger trap in His front yard, He is responsible for the injuries it causes. If He turns children loose in a workshop full of power tools, He is responsible for any injuries they sustain. Stop ignoring the rebuttal and address it.
Phat writes:
If you disagree, explain to me how evil could manifest without an action by a human.
Been there, done that, got a closet full of T-shirts.
Of course an action by a human is necessary. A human can't fall into a tiger trap without a human being present. It's the tiger trap that doesn't need to be present. The evil One who dug the tiger trap is responsible.
Phat writes:
Am I not allowed to elaborate or speculate on what a book written by humans means?
No. You are not allowed to deny one part of the book that you don't like and then rely on another part of the book that you do like. You have to be honest.
Phat writes:
Jesus said there is none good but God. Was He lying?
He was weaseling. He asked why somebody called Him good and said that only God is good (Matthew 19:17). He also said, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) Those claims can not both be "true".
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
But Jesus DOESN"T represent personified good. If He is God and God creates evil, then He represents good AND evil.
That's not what the book says. That's what ringo concludes.
What else can you conclude? Give an argument, for once.
Phat writes:
Jesus and I have a give-and-take relationship. He commands. I question.
But He never "commands" you to do anything you don't want to do. "Soldier! We gotta take that hill! So if it isn't too much trouble, if you can work it into your schedule, would you mind going over there and shooting at the enemy? Pretty please?" That kind of "command" isn't too hard to take.
Phat writes:
If He ultimately sends me to hell, you will have won the argument.
Then I can't win the argument because He doesn't exist so He can't send you to hell.
Phat writes:
Note that the sheep and goats story has not yet happened. At this point, we don't know who the sheep are and who the goats are.
Well, it kinda has. The dead will be judged on what they have already done. You will be judged on what you have already done (or not done). You might be able to do enough good in the rest of your life to outweigh the bad you have done in the past (and the good that you have not done in the past). Your "salvation" (from God) depends on God's grace (whim).
Phat writes:
At this point, we don't know who the sheep are and who the goats are.
I just finished saying that. You contradict yourself.
And by the way, since we don't know who are goats and who are sheep, you can not claim that you are already "saved".
Phat writes:
If God were both good and evil, as your lame interpretation of His character suggests...
You have not demonstrated that my reading has any lameness. It's an exact, literal reading, You have to interpret it through a lot of hoops to get any other reading.
Phat writes:
He would have plainly said "I AM good and evil...."
He did.
He who creates evil is evil.
Phat writes:
In which case, humans are all let off the hook for being responsible for what they do, since it is all up to God anyway.
That makes no sense. Try again in English.
Phat writes:
You defend a book full of characters you doubt even exist.
Sure. Why not? I can defend the message without believing the characters existed. Look at Aesop's fables. The talking animals never existed but the morals of the stories still have value.
And I have more respect for the Bible fables than you do.
Phat writes:
And don't go trotting out your argument that Long John Silver or Bilbo Baggins don't exist and yet are themselves in books.
I WILL trot out the argument until you understand that it is true.
Phat writes:
It too is a lame argument.
SHOW that it is lame.
Phat writes:
You can't judge someone by a book that you think was written by humans.
And I suppose I can't fly to Paris on a plane that was designed by humans, built by humans and piloted by humans.
Seriously, do you think at all before you write nonsense like that? Do you read it after you wrote it to see if it has a germ of sense?
ALL books are written by humans. By your logic, all books are useless.
phat writes:
ringo writes:
What has that got to do with what we're talking about?
This started out with you saying, and I quote:
ringo writes:
Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil.
It is you who are Gishing.
Funny! You gallop off in all directions accusing me of Gish-galloping instead of addressing what I said. That's more like YOU Gish-galloping (again).
Phat writes:
You have become like jar...
Thanks for the compliment. I have also become like God (Genesis 3:22).
Phat writes:
... trying to argue by reframing an argument to favor your points.
Well, forgive me for presenting my side of the argument. I'd argue your side but it doesn't make any sense.
Phat writes:
In fact, I think you have one scripture for the OT, Isaiah 45:7, and one scripture for the NT, Matthew 25.
I mentioned Genesis 3 just above. I mention it quite often but you never address it.
Phat writes:
And I expect you to address the scriptures I quoted from Revelation...
You can expect till the cows come home. I'll address it when/if you tie it into what we're discussing.
Phat writes:
... and kindly explain why I'm wrong about a Beast who does not yet exist and a Jesus who eternally does.
They're both just your wishful thinking. Your Jesus is entirely made up and has no connection to what little we know about a "historical Jesus". You're wrong to throw away the historical record, however thin, and make up your own alternative facts.
As for the Beast, you're wrong to assume that the Revelation has any basis in reality.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by Phat, posted 09-18-2022 4:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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